Today, Joe asks Jamie a follow up question: Why does God feel hidden today, unlike in the Bible?
Jamie Dew: Hey, everybody. It's Jamie Dew
Joe Fontenot: And I am Joe Fontenot.
Jamie Dew: Welcome back again to our podcast Towel & The Basin.
Joe Fontenot: That's right. So this is sort of a continuation of our last episode in that I have a question that comes out of the last one.
Jamie Dew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Joe Fontenot: The last episode we did looked at miracles; why do they happen, why do they not happen, and so forth, and talked about that. You have some great resources and books at the end. So if somebody hasn't listened to that, it'd be great to go back and listen to that as well after you're done with this one. So here's a question that you referenced in the other one, and I have this question still in my mind. This is about the hiddenness of God. You said that a few times.
So here's my question, why don't we see God, and by extension miracles, like they did in the Bible? I mean, at least from my point of view, I don't think I've ever seen a miracle.
Jamie Dew: Right. Yeah. Yeah, great question. I think I don't want to deny that there are, in fact, some people that experienced miracles, even by the definition that I gave in the last podcast. I do think that there's... Again, I mentioned the Craig Keener two volume set where he just outlines a tremendous amount of information and data. I have known friends that have experienced very clear things. I've experienced a few things in my life that I would be pretty doggone close to put in the category of miracle. I'm just amazed by what happened, and I don't have any physiological or scientific explanation for. But it is very rare, and so I'm glad we're doing this follow-up podcast because there is this other big issue out there called the hiddenness of God.
Now, again, as I mention this, most philosophers of religion when they deal with hiddenness, they put it in with the problem of evil. I'll give you two examples of that. In a book that I did years ago with Chad Meister called God and Evil, it's a book on the problem of evil, but we deal with hiddenness in that book. In the book I mentioned in the last podcast, Philosophy: a Christian Introduction, that I did a couple of years ago with Paul Gould, Paul wrote the chapter on the problem of evil, and the second half of that chapter deals with the hiddenness of God. So that's the normal way that this issue comes up. It's perfectly legitimate to deal with it that way because it is a subset of the problem of evil.
Having said that, in my mind, my responses to this problem they dovetail with my understandings of miracles and why it is that God would do these things in the first place. The question is why didn't this happen? Part of my answer is because the very thing you're looking for by its very nature is not the kind of thing that's supposed to be happening a whole lot, and that's because of the way I understand miracles. So I tend to bring these two things together in my understanding.
So let's first of all just get square on what the problem is and where the anxiety comes from. I do think, now there's a lot of believers that may bristle at the very question. Like, "What do you mean where's God and he's hiding from us?" But I think that there's a version of this that even devout Christians, faithful, God loving Christians could appreciate and understand, and have perhaps even felt and struggled with. So I'll speak to that. So the atheist would argue something like this, John Schellenberg, for example, would say things like that if God exists and God is all loving, if the God of the Bible that's supposed to be all loving, if that God existed, he says "reasonable non-belief should not exist."
What that means is there are people that don't believe, but if God existed, they would be irrational for not believing. But they are irrational in their non-belief, so this is a problem. Why? His point is simply this is that if God, if I can put it this way, if God is, in fact, the big deal that Christianity says he is, then wouldn't he be more obvious to us if he loves us? If that God created us, has a plan for us and loves us, wouldn't he want to make himself more evident to us and more obvious to us? So he's inclined to think that if God were really to exist, then he should be so clear to us, like the blueness in the sky, that he would make himself obvious that way. The fact that that doesn't happen is a real problem for theism.
So there are these arguments now that exist that are called hiddenness arguments that are suggesting that Christian theism has this major problem. So, that's the kind of thing that an atheist is going to say. I think Christian will struggle with this issue in a different way, but I think at the core of it, it's the same issue. The Christian's going to deal with it the same way we talked about in the last podcast and even this one. Like, "My gosh, I read the scriptures and God seems to show up and intervene and do stuff like that every single day in the lives of people. Then in our lives, that just doesn't happen. I pray. And I feel like my prayers are bouncing off the ceiling and I don't feel like God is hearing me or responding to me."
It's in that kind of existential struggle that I think Christians are essentially struggling with this hiddenness question. In both cases, the question is being asked, why don't we see God doing stuff in our lives more often? That's the question.
Joe Fontenot: Yeah. Yeah. [crosstalk 00:05:30]
Jamie Dew: I think, look, that is indeed a question that not only we, but I think throughout the history of God's people, God's people have struggled with that question. I mean, read the Psalms for example. I mean the Psalmist will ask questions like "How long, oh Lord? Be not far from me." Even in the New Testament, there were people that struggled with the seeming lack of engagement that Jesus would have. Now granted in that case, it was only for a couple of days in Lazarus's case, but that's the question they ask him. When he finally shows up in John 11 to Lazarus's death, the question that they ask him is, "Lord, where were you?"
So all that to say throughout the history of God's people, there have been a little bit of wonder about this and head scratching as to why it is that God doesn't seem to interact the way that we would want him to. Even in CS Lewis's works, for example, in Chronicles of Narnia, notice that Aslan, he's not around them all the time, and they don't always understand his comings and goings. So I think it's understandable that people would wonder about this question.
All right, there's the issues. Does that make sense?
Joe Fontenot: Yeah, yeah. That totally makes sense.
Jamie Dew: All right, so how do we respond to that? There's a variety of different ways that people have responded to all of this, and I think that some of these have some merit, but I don't know that any one of them really completely feeds the bulldog, so to speak. So maybe each of them gives us a little bit of insight and is a little bit helpful, but doesn't completely solve the question. Some people have said things like, well... Some people have sort of doubled down and said, "No, God is interacting with us and God does show up," and they try to act as if they can marshal evidence that God shows up in their life all the time in the same way that it kind of feels like he does in the old New Testament.
Here's what's good about that: I think that there are indeed things from our lives as Christians that we can point to that God does, and we should be very eager to share those and willing to share those with the world around us, okay? But at the same time, for a lot of people, this just rings of an intellectual dishonesty that trying to make something there that's not there. So I don't know how fruitful that pathway's going to be. You have some of the responses that are going to say something to the effect of, "Well, yes. Of course God is distant from us, in a sense, because if he were to be around us more vividly and more strongly and more regularly, it would be to our harm.
It could be to our harm in one of two ways. It could be a harm physically, like in the Old Testament; you're not allowed to see God lest you died and things like that. Or it could be a harm to you because it would make you spiritually lazy. You'd take it for granted and hunger and thirst for God and seeking God and longing for God would not develop.
Joe Fontenot: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jamie Dew: If you go this route, I like the second way of doing that better than the first. I just have a hard time saying, well, if you're around us it might kill us, because my goodness gracious, what do you do with the incarnation at that point? But the spiritual longing and groaning and things like that for God, okay, sure, there does seem to be, even as you read the Psalms, note the effect that the seeming distance from God that the Psalmists often feel. Note the effect that that has on them. What did it do to them? What did it generate within them? It generated within them a real hunger, a real thirst for God, and that's healthy. That's good.
So perhaps it is that God does, at times, let us feel a distance and in result of that our hearts are kindled, stronger and greater for Him. A greater hunger and thirst. I don't like that necessarily, but that does seem to be what goes on sometimes, and at the end of the day, while I may not like it, the hunger and thirst in my heart for God, little though it may be, I'm grateful. I couldn't have generated that myself. I couldn't have just turned a switch on, oh, desire God more. I can't do that. God has to be at work in my life even through things like distance at times to help me cultivate that and growth that.
Joe Fontenot: Yeah.
Jamie Dew: So I think that these are what I'd call some partial answers. I'm not particularly convinced on this. Here's how I think through it, and this ties back to my understanding of miracles, maybe yeah. Maybe we're just in a moment of history, a season of history, and it's a very long season, it's 2000 years for example, maybe we are in just a moment of history wherein this is not what's normal, right? The way I think about this is I call this a bit of an eschatological response in that I understand God's... The kind of interaction we're looking for in all of this is the very kind of interaction that by its nature is not going to show up very often.
Joe Fontenot: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jamie Dew: There are going to be moments in history where it happens, for sure, but it won't necessarily be the norm. So to start this, let me give some categories again that we did in the last podcast, and then I'll give you a metaphor to understand all these things in.
Joe Fontenot: Okay.
Jamie Dew: The categories are these: the question is how does God interact with the world? I'll give you a couple categories. Miraculous, miraculous intervention is one way. That's what we're really looking for here, right?
Joe Fontenot: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jamie Dew: Providential interaction, that's another way. Ontological interaction, he's upholding all things by the word of his power. Spiritual interaction, right, convicting of sin, righteousness, judgment to come, guiding us in truth and such. Then last of all, bodily incarnation, the bodily presence, right? The incarnation did that. So these are at least five ways. Maybe there are more, but there are at least five ways that I can see just real quick out of scripture that God interacts with his world, okay. So those are the ways.
Now think about each of those ways of interacting as a different kind of tool that could be used to accomplish purposes, and here's the metaphor. I call it the building the house metaphor. Imagine that I bought a strip of land with a bunch of trees on it, and my goal, the end that I seek for that land is to build a house. Here's what I would do. Phase one, I'd bring in chainsaws and bulldozers and I'd cut down the trees and I'd bulldoze the stumps out of the ground and I'd flatten the land and I'd level the land and I'd grade the land. That's phase one. What do you see in phase one? You see chainsaws and bulldozers.
Joe Fontenot: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jamie Dew: And then in phase two what do you do? You bring a backhoe and you dig the foundation, you pour the concrete, and then you bring in the mason that brings in the brick or the stone that's going to lay the foundation. Then in phase three, you bring in the framers and they frame out the house with the 2 x 4s and 2 x 8s and plywood and such. In phase four, you bring in plumbers and electricians and such, and then siders and roofers and then painters and then all of those things.
Now I could go phase, phase, phase, phase for all of that, but here's what I want you to see. The various phases of the building of that house require different kinds of tools, right? You have at the beginning bulldozers and chainsaws, but when you get sheetrock on the walls, you're not using chainsaws to secure your wall. When you get to painting, you're not using chainsaws. Likewise, when you're at the very beginning, you don't use paintbrushes to knock down trees and to level ground. You just don't.
The point of the metaphor is this: at various stages and phases of the unfolding of that house, the builder is going to utilize different tools along the way. Now, this kind of may sound a little bit like dispensationalism, and that's not where I'm trying to go with this, but I do think across the span of history from the moment of creation to the end and the eschaton when God brings his kingdom, it is as though God is starting from scratch, so to speak, and unfolding throughout history his plan and building his kingdom. What I would want to say is that along the way, if we understand those ways that God interacts with his world, providential, miracle, ontological, spiritual, and incarnation, clearly then, there are certain modes in which God is going to interact with his world then, right?
In the incarnation, that's a very specific way that God chose to interact with this world. In the time of Jesus, and then right after Jesus, miracles are happening like crazy. I think it's because in that moment of history, that snapshot of history that you're seeing in the Bible just so happens to be a snapshot of history where God has to do work to do what? How did I define a miracle? To confirm a person, to confirm a message, to confirm offices like apostle and prophets and things like that. So therefore, miracles accompanied those things because the very confirmation process that's unfolding right there requires it. In places and times in history like the Red Sea, for example, when man, if God doesn't do a miracle right there, then the bloodline of Jesus gets snuffed out.
So here's my takeaway: there are some moments in seasons in history that it seems to me would necessarily require that very kind of interaction, okay? But once those seasons are over, that's not what's normal. Now it doesn't mean, let me be real clear about this, that doesn't mean that there couldn't still be times and places where this does happen. Look, when a brother or sister comes to me and has experienced something that's a miracle, I'm inclined to believe that they really experienced a miracle. Assuming that we're talking about the suspension of the laws of nature and some stuff like that.
I absolutely believe that God could still do it. I mean, like in the metaphor, once the house was built, does that mean we never again use a chainsaw? No. It's just we don't use them every day.
Joe Fontenot: Exactly.
Jamie Dew: Does that mean that we will never again use a paintbrush? No. It just means we might not use them every day, right?
Joe Fontenot: Yeah.
Jamie Dew: The snapshot of scripture in moments where history is in a phase, where that very message in person has to be confirmed in a unique way.
Joe Fontenot: Yeah.
Jamie Dew: Interestingly, the places in the world where you see miracles happening, now Hume would say it's where the poorly educated are, right? Again, I said in the last podcast, I think that's just profoundly arrogant. But the other thing I could say in response to that is, yeah, those are also today where the gospel is unfolding for, in many cases, the first time. What happens? God acts in ways to confirm his message again and again and again. Once we get a new Testament and the canon is closed, the message has been delivered to us, and I'm inclined to think, therefore, that, wow, that explains why we saw an uptick, a big uptick if you will, in the frequency of those things happening during the development of all of that.
So it's a bit of an eschatological response. I think you have to understand our moment we're in now against the backdrop of the whole thing and maybe this helps us make sense of the difference we see.
Joe Fontenot: Yeah. That definitely helps because, in my mind, I see almost a simple, linear kind of thing. There's now difference between now and then. I mean, I totally understand what you're saying, but my sort of knee jerk reaction is, well, this is the same as then fundamentally. But this metaphor of stages and building and so forth is actually very helpful for me.
Jamie Dew: Well, I'm glad it's helpful, and I hope it is for others as well. I just think maybe all of that to say we could simply note that it is unusual to see these things happening. I don't think that takes anything away from our faith at all. Because again, we're not saying that it can't happen and doesn't happen in times; it's just saying it's not the norm because miracles are by their very nature, not the norm. There have been moments in history where God was doing something unique towards the unfolding of his eschatological kingdom where he did some things in more frequently unusual ways. That should not strike us as problematic.
Joe Fontenot: Yeah.
Jamie Dew: And oh by the way, let me also mention this. So really what this means is in our day-to-day life now, we don't see miracles happening with the frequency that we saw them in the past is really what I'm saying, okay?
Joe Fontenot: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jamie Dew: We're not saying it doesn't happen. We just don't see them with the same frequency we once saw them, but that doesn't mean that God is not upholding us or spiritually involved in our lives. So when people push back and say, "Where's God," this is precisely where. I said this in the last podcast, this is precisely where I think believers have now have to step up and say, "No, I can tell you of how God is interacting in my life." We should talk openly and freely about the spiritual interaction that we have and the communion that we have with God and the way that he leads us in the way that he guides for us in the way that he corrects us and cultivates us. Our spiritual lives and the stories associated with them are important parts of what we have to talk about.
So I think we've got to share that because if that's true, then the argument is dead on arrival that God's not interacting with us and God's not showing up because Christians across the land, across the centuries can stand up and say "Yes, he is. Let me tell you my story."
Joe Fontenot: Yeah, that's a really great point because I think, like you said, really the question behind the question is where is God?
Jamie Dew: Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's right. That's right.
Joe Fontenot: We've picked one particular facet and mode to say-
Jamie Dew: That's right.
Joe Fontenot: Well, if this is negative, then all is negative and that's clearly not true.
Jamie Dew: That's right. The question is being asked, where is God, and then there's an insistence that the only way you're allowed to answer that question is to talk about miracles.
Joe Fontenot: Right.
Jamie Dew: What we're having to say here is uh-uh (negative). There are lots of other ways as well that we can talk about this. At the same time, we don't have to forfeit and say that, "Oh God never does these miracles" because he does. But day-to-day, here's what he's doing every single day in our lives.
Joe Fontenot: Right. That's really good. Well, this has been super helpful. I appreciate this Jamie.
Jamie Dew: All right, man. Thanks Bro.
Joe Fontenot: All right, thanks.
Jamie Dew: Hey everybody, this is Jamie and Joe again. If you liked this podcast, would you leave us a rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts. That helps other people find it. If you have any questions, we'd love to hear about them. Just go to jamiedew.com/questions and send them in that way, and we'll take a look at the most frequently asked questions and give them a shot.