This is the conclusion of our look into the core of Jamie's latest research. And it all centers around hylomorphism and what it means to us as Christians today.
Jamie Dew: Hey everybody. This is Jamie Dew.
Joe Fontenot: And I am Joe Fontenot.
Jamie: Once again, welcome to The Towel & Basin Podcast.
Joe: And so, today we are doing our third part on this human soul, body question. And previously we talked about these three different categories called substance dualism, called materialism, and then called hylomorphism.
Jamie: Hylomorphism.
Joe: And so, today, I want to ask you, more specifically, at least for my benefit, what is hylomorphism, and something else you mentioned too, how is this connected to the idea of, a human has a soul, and they have a body, and they're not the same thing, but they're also not entirely separate.
Jamie: That's right. And we talked about it in the last podcast about why this hylomorphic perspective might be advantageous when it comes to all these moral issues and things of that nature. Let me just start here maybe by reminding of specifically what this view says. So the substance dualist, let's start there, they make the claim, two big claims. Number one, that there's a distinction between a body and the soul. Those are different kinds of things. I do still affirm that.
Jamie: And I think that at least a version of hylomorphism to a mystic hylomorphism says that, affirms that statement, that bodies and souls are different kinds of things. Where a hylomorphist like Thomas would differ and disagree with the substance dualist, what the substance dualist claim secondly. Secondly, the substance dualist would say that the human person just is the immaterial soul that they're distinct from the material body. And Thomas, while he agrees that there is a body and a soul, those different kinds of things, he disagrees that the human person is identical to the immaterial soul.
Joe: And this is a little bit of the dilemma that you got into last episode with the abortion issue.
Jamie: Correct. So what Thomas says is "No, the human person is the body and the soul together." Not merely that he has a body and a soul, but that he is constituted by, he is composed of a body and soul. That's what we mean when we talk about a hylomorphic whole. And so, I know that's a very technical, philosophical, or theological category, but it's an important one for Thomas, and it's an important one for this view. And I think, per our last podcast, I think it's an important position when we think about all of our ethical things. I think that the Christian tradition basically says to us that a human person just is this composite of a body and a soul.
Jamie: And so, we can make a case for that in any number of ways. As I've thought through this over the years, and really for the last 10 years, this has been my intellectual life, has been devoted to these types of questions. I think you're going to make a case for that biblically. And when we have passages of scripture in Genesis chapter two, where God creates the man from the dust of the ground and forms his body and then breathes into his nostrils, the breath of life. First Thessalonians chapter five talks this way where a human person seems to be body, soul, and all of these things brought together. So biblically, I think you've got the hints of this type of thing. I also think philosophically speaking, that you have an easier time, not an easy time, but an easier time dealing with the way minds and bodies interact with each other.
Jamie: So it really is a phenomenal thing that happens to us. And we don't know exactly how this works, but we do know that when my mind tells my body to lift its hand so the coffee can come to the mouth, the body does it. And we do know that when the body's neurological receptors or neurological function ceases to function in the right way, we do know that those types of interactions will stop. So there's clearly an integration and an interaction here. Well, that seems to make much more sense to me. What we find and discover, that makes much more sense to me if a human person just is the composite of those two things together.
Joe: I mean, this makes a lot of sense to me from a very practical point of view. My grandmother passed away recently, a few months back, and she had Alzheimer's, and her eyes also started going, she was older, and we saw a marked progression, both of the disease, but also of her withdrawing and all that kind of stuff. When you see the physical starting to go, the mind is there. So they're just so connected.
Jamie: They're distinct from each other on this view, but they are indeed connected. And so, therefore, when that composite begins to deteriorate or break apart, personhood is interrupted on this view. Now, we think in this view that certainly there still is a soul, an immaterial soul, and that that immaterial soul, when death comes, goes into the presence of God, and the body goes back into the ground and deteriorates, and therefore longs for resurrection. Which by the way, is one of the major reasons I think this view is right.
Jamie: I mean, so here's the thing, when it comes to the Bible, thinking about death now, the two big promises of Christianity regarding death, it seems to me there's two. One is that we get our bodies back in the resurrection, and that two, in the intermediate state, and that is the time between death and the resurrection, and most traditions within the Christian Church affirms something like the intermediate state. Protestants generally do, Catholics generally do. So we'll just reference it as the intermediate state, that during this time, the immaterial soul is in the presence of God and basking in his glory. This is the soul that's in me now, and in you now, it's the thing in me now that's thinking, and conscious, and has awareness and loves, and all those things. That thing separates from the body and goes into the presence of God. But it waits for, and longs for the resurrection of the body. It longs for Christ to finish his work.
Jamie: So these two promises, resurrection and intermediate state, I think they're both there. Here's what's interesting. A lot within the substance dualist side will emphasize more the intermediate state and the soul's presence in heaven. And can be somewhat dismissive of the resurrection. But look, when I go through The New Testament, there are passing references to this intermediate state, second Corinthians chapter 5:7, "To be absent from the body and be present with the Lord," And things like that.
Jamie: But the overwhelming emphasis on the afterlife of The New Testament regarding the afterlife have to do with the resurrection of the dead. I mean, so it's not just a passing reference here or there, it's whole chapters of scripture. First Corinthians chapter 15, 58 verses devoted to the resurrection of the dead. First Thessalonians chapter five. I think there's a five or seven verse chunk there, where Paul just goes on talking about the dead in Christ being raised. John chapter 11, where Jesus talks about Lazarus. And the whole chapter is set up to teach us about what? The resurrection of the dead.
Jamie: So I'd say this, the emphasis in the new Testament is on the resurrection. And that doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense to me if I just am a disembodied self, an immaterial self, but if this physical organism has something to do with who I am, and what I am, well, then it makes sense now that resurrection's going to be so important to us.
Joe: Yeah, that's true. Because we're basically saying, on that one point, that the soul is already going to be with God. So if it is with God and the rest doesn't matter, then what's all this entire scripture about?
Jamie: That's right. It seems to me, the resurrection, which The New Testament has invested so much in making that point, is frankly somewhat superfluous if, in fact, I just am a disembodied self.
Joe: Like you said, first Corinthians 15, the whole point was the bodily resurrection, people saw him.
Jamie: That's right. And so, I mean, I think that the hylomorphic perspective does a better job of accounting for the importance of the resurrection in this tradition. And there's lots, lots more we can say on that, but for now, I just leave it right there and say, I think that this hylomorphic perspective does a better job of getting at what The New Testament's teaching regarding human persons by way of resurrection stuff.
Jamie: There's one other reason. And this became for me, it didn't start off as a major reason for holding this view, but it became probably the greatest reason of why I hold this view. And that is just simply put, I think that this is in fact what the church has thought and taught for its history. Now, there's some divergence once the Protestant reformation comes, because Protestants tend to be a little bit all over the map on this.
Jamie: But generally speaking, the picture that I began to discover over the years of reading, and researching, and things like that, is that, look, what the church has said for its 2000 years of history is that human persons are, not just possess body and soul, but human persons are the composite of a body and soul.
Jamie: So for example, as I go back through, and I started discovering, through church history, there's these various church fathers that said something like this. And then over the years, discovering more and more, the picture I began to see is that no overwhelmingly, the church said stuff like this.
Jamie: So for example, this view, namely, this view that human persons are a composite of body and soul, not just merely have that, but this view is held by Irenaeus, it's held by Tertullian, it's held by Methodius, it's held by Justin Martyr, it's held by Cyril of Alexandria, it's upheld by the AFA nation creed, it's upheld by Augustine. And there's a little bit of a question on Augustine. I will admit that because I know all my substance dualist friends will quote Augustine on their side as well. In fairness, Augustine talks both ways. There are times Augustine clearly talks as a substance dualist, "You have a body, but you are a soul."
Jamie: But there's also plenty of times where Augustine talks the way of the hylomorphist as well, or says, "No, you are the body, soul composite." Aquinas doesn't though, he's very clear. Aquinas affirms the view that I'm talking about, this hylomorphic composite. Bavinck talks this way. And then of course, you come up into the contemporary world, we find lots of advocates for both. But the picture that I began to get was that across the board, historically speaking, what the church said in large part was that we are body, soul composites. And because of that, I just think it's fair to say that the Christian view historically has been this. Then they may have been careful with the language of hylomorphism per se, but they were still wanting to insist that human persons not just have a body and the soul, but that they are a body and a soul.
Joe: So, one thing I noticed as you're talking about this and also through the previous couple episodes that we've looked at this issue, is that it's really a fundamental issue. So for instance, at least what helps me understand it so well, is like when you fight, ideologically, logically against a transgender position, saying that's wrong, what I mean by fight. And then you go to abortion and you say that's wrong. A lot of times it's easy to have your cake and eat it too if you're not picking the right one of these, but it's not always a parent that's what's going on. And so, at least if you haven't stopped to really think through these positions. And I'm sure there are plenty of people, myself is certainly one who was not familiar with the hylomorphic position. And I know plenty of people who know, I mean, certainly the materialism, but the substance dualism, I know plenty of people who will go to their death on that perhaps even because they're not familiar with the hylomorphic view.
Jamie: I mean, that certainly may very well be true. So when I talk, and I don't mean this as a criticism, and it's just not the world... I mean, the same would be true of me. If The New Testament people talk to me about things that I just assume, they would immediately realize that I'm pretty doggone sloppy on certain categories.
Joe: Sure.
Jamie: Generally speaking, biblical scholars, theologians that I interact with are less familiar with the category of hylomorphism, even substance dualism. The philosophers that I would interact with a lot though, they're certainly familiar with it. And here I'd say there's a general split. I mean, you certainly still have very abled defenders of a substance dualist perspective that are doing phenomenal work philosophically. But you also have hylomorphists doing the same type of thing.
Jamie: I think, if you're arguing it on purely philosophical grounds, it really could go either way. But what I'm trying to say is, man, look, looking back through the history of the church, what the church said was that human persons are not merely creatures that have body and soul, they are creatures that are body and soul. And that's a fundamentally different kind of claim. And oh, by the way, I think that this position better serves our ethical convictions as well. So it's not just what the church has said. And I think provides us a better account of the resurrection, but it also facilitates these ethical concerns as well. So across the board, I think, this is the better position to hold.
Joe: Okay. Last question on this, really simple question. A pastor or a lay layer, whoever is listening to this, if they want to learn more about this, what would be a good starting point? And that's something we can drop in the show notes as well for people who are listening in their car, they can go back and look this up. Anything off the top of your head?
Jamie: Yeah. Generally speaking, I mean there is just a sea of resources on this right now. This book that I'd mentioned is a little old right now, but it still gives you a good lay of the land. It's called In Search of the Soul. I believe it's Stuart [Geurt's 00:14:12] and Palmer's book that, I forget the first name on that one, but that's a fantastic resource to look at. That's probably the best one stop shop to get a general overview of various perspectives on this. I think there's four views in the book that goes through. There's plenty of other things, but they get a little technical pretty quick.
Joe: Right on. Awesome. Well, thanks so much.
Jamie: Hey everybody, this is Jamie and Joe, again.
Joe: If you liked this podcast, would you leave us a rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts. That helps other people find it.
Jamie: And if you have any questions, we'd love to hear about them. Just go to jamiedew.com/questions and send them in that way, and we'll take a look at the most frequently asked questions and give them a shot.