Today, Jamie talks to Dr Tyler Wittman -- assistant professor of theology at NOBTS -- about how the doctrine of the Trinity developed.
Jamie: Hey everybody, my name is Jamie Dew. Welcome back to our podcast, The Towel & The Basin. I am flying solo today, at least in terms of hosting. Because, I have a guest with me here in the studio today. One of our professors here at NOBTS and Leavell College, Dr. Tyler Wittman. It's good to have you with us. Thanks for joining us, man.
Tyler: It's good to be here. Thanks.
Jamie: Yeah. Joe's normally with us, but it'll just be me and Tyler today. And we're going to talk about, really, I think, probably one of the most essential doctrines in the whole Christian faith. And that is, the doctrine of the Trinity. And we are super excited to have Tyler and his family here with us at NOBTS. Started with us, I guess, back August.
Tyler: That's right. Yeah.
Jamie: Moved here a little bit before that, but started with us in August. And love having you guys here.
And he's been a tremendous asset to us here on our campus, and with our students. Every time I see you, you're with a student in the cafeteria. Or in the HSC.
Tyler: A lot of food to eat. A lot of coffee drink.
Jamie: That's right. Yeah. There's lots of food in New Orleans. So, tell us a little bit about yourself. A little bit about your family first, and we'll go from there.
Tyler: Yeah. I grew up a pastor's kid, and didn't want anything to do with ministry. And somehow, ended up on the academic side of things through the Lord's working. Yeah. Married to Jesse for almost 10 years now. We have four kids.
Jamie: Yep.
Tyler: From eight, to almost two.
Jamie: Yep.
Tyler: And they keep us really busy, and full of important things.
Jamie: Yeah. One day, a long time from now, you're going to hear this podcast. And you're going to say, oh, I remember those ages.
Tyler: That's right. Life was easy back then.
Jamie: Yeah.
Tyler: Yeah. Something like that.
Jamie: Yeah. They grew up real quick. Man, I'm grateful to have you. So, let me make sure I got your degrees right. You have an MD.... where'd you do undergrad? Colorado State, right?
Tyler: That's right. Yeah.
Jamie: All right. What'd you study there?
Tyler: Communication.
Jamie: Ah. Nothing to do with what we're talking about today.
Tyler: A BA in BS, as someone once said.
Jamie: There you go. Yeah. So Colorado State, undergrad. You did an MDIV and a THM at Southern Seminary, in Louisville, Kentucky. And then PhD at St. Andrew's, under John Webster, right?
Tyler: Yep.
Jamie: Yeah. So what was that like, studying with Webster?
Tyler: That was great. It was just what I needed. I had a couple options there, coming out the THM. And just prayed through all those. The Lord led us to the one school that didn't offer us any money.
Jamie: Yeah.
Tyler: And so -
Jamie: Ouch.
Tyler: But that was what we felt to do. The Lord provided. And just being under John, really was what I needed in that season of life.
Jamie: Yeah.
Tyler: He modeled not only intellectual and theological rigor, but also, just humility.
Jamie: Yeah.
Tyler: And I think, that's probably what I needed more than anything, was just someone to model intellectual and moral humility to me.
Jamie: Yeah.
Tyler: Yeah.
Jamie: Yeah. What an opportunity. I mean, his reputation's legendary. He passed away when? Two years ago, three years ago?
Tyler: 2016.
Jamie: 2016. All right. Wow. So, five years ago.
Tyler: May 2016. Yeah.
Jamie: Wow. What a loss. Well, I know that was a big opportunity to study with him. You studied Doctrine of God, right?
Tyler: That's right.
Jamie: Broadly.
Tyler: Broadly. God's relation to the world.
Jamie: Right.
Tyler: God and the world. It's about as abstract as it gets.
Jamie: Right.
Tyler: Or broad. Yeah.
Jamie: No, but that's good stuff.
Tyler: About everything. Yeah.
Jamie: I said this to you, right before we started this up. Just, for our listeners here. So generally speaking, whenever we're talking about something that I feel a sense of expertise in, I'm happy for it to be me and Joe. But when we get into things that I don't have a particular expertise in, I'm not going to touch them with a 10 foot pole, without somebody like you in the room. So, I feel bad about that. People have asked me if I would do any more degrees. No.
But I did entertain the possibility of doing the THM, so that I could get at these doctrines, like the Doctrine Of the Trinity we're going to talk about today, and in some of our next podcasts. Because this really is, I think... I don't know if you'd say it this way but, the defining doctrine of the Christian faith.
Tyler: Yes.
Jamie: It's essential to everything we believe.
Tyler: Everything we believe is about the trinity.
Jamie: Yeah. That's right.
Tyler: And some respect. Yeah.
Jamie: And it's not just that it's a deeply important doctrine. And it's not just that it's this essential doctrine that Christianity's shaped around. It's complex.
Tyler: Yep.
Jamie: It's very difficult conceptually, to wrap our heads around with great clarity.
Tyler: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jamie: Seems to me, we know enough to say what's not the case. And what is the case, is not logically contradictory in any way. But whether or not we fully comprehend all of that, that's still... we are dealing with the parameters of our faith right there. The edges of our faith of what we can and can't understand. And we're grappling with the infinite here. And so, it's very difficult. And here's the real kicker. This is why I want to make sure you're in the room when we have these conversations. In addition to that, that if you have not been paying attention and reading and up to speed on the literature in the last five years, then you're desperately behind on Trinitarian discussions. Because, so much has been written in the last five years.
Tyler: You could be desperately behind on the discussions.
Jamie: Yeah, that's right.
Tyler: Maybe not the doctrine.
Jamie: Oh, well then that encourages me.
Tyler: Yeah.
Jamie: Then count me among those that are behind on the discussions.
Tyler: There you go.
Jamie: And I hope to remain up to speed on the doctrine itself. So let's do this, let's talk today in this podcast, just generally speaking about the Doctrine Of The Trinity. Let's start here, what is this doctrine? And in just a minute or two, or something like that, what does Christianity teach here?
Tyler: No, it's a good question. I think first of all, we have to be careful speaking about a monolithic Doctrine Of The Trinity as if there's just one way that people who articulated this... there is one truth that is being articulated in a couple of different traditions, within Christianity.
Jamie: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tyler: But at the heart of it, is a collective set of commitments, right?
Jamie: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tyler: That there is one God. There are not three Gods.
Jamie: Right.
Tyler: Okay? That the one God is father, son and holy spirit simultaneously, and entirely equally.
Jamie: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tyler: It's not like, God is at one time father, at one time son, at another time... he's always eternally father, son, and spirit.
Jamie: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tyler: And that those three, are not three Gods, right?
Jamie: Right.
Tyler: And that everything that God is, the father is. Everything that God is, the son is. Everything that God is, the spirit is.
Jamie: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tyler: And the only thing that the father is, the son and the spirit are not, is the father. Only thing the son is that the father and the spirit aren't, is the son.
Jamie: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tyler: I mean, if you're going to construct a basic grammar of the Doctrine Of The Trinity. Basic rules for talking. I mean, that collection of commitments, is going to be at the core of it.
Jamie: Right. I've heard people talk about this way, that you could say, God, one in essence. Three in persons.
Tyler: Yep.
Jamie: Is that a fair way to do it?
Tyler: That's right.
Jamie: Now also, you talked about how there's not necessarily one monolithic idea of what the Trinity is. But rather, different traditions speaking about this one reality, this one truth, in different ways. I've heard some theologians make some pretty clear distinctions historically, between east and west.
Tyler: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jamie: Well, both would affirm the same essential things that some would maybe, give a greater emphasis to the three ness of the persons. And some, maybe, giving more little emphasis to the oneness. Is that a fair way of thinking about the history?
Tyler: I mean, it just depends on who you ask.
Jamie: Okay.
Tyler: It used to be the common way of construing it.
Jamie: Yeah.
Tyler: Is that, the east starts from the three and goes to the one. And the west does this other... and then, the west were the bad guys. Because they...
Jamie: Right.
Tyler: But more recent literature in the past 30 years or so, 20 years in particular, has really complicated that.
Jamie: Okay.
Tyler: It's pretty inadequate. And so other... I mean, if you're keeping up with the discussion so forth, then there are other ways of saying, well, maybe it's like this or that. So, there are obvious... I mean, if you're reading Gregory [inaudible 00:07:42], and then you're reading Augustine, and you spend long enough with those two figures, and you should spend a long time with those figure. You'll discover, okay, there are different instincts here. Or there's different conceptual at play. But also it's pretty clear, they're talking about the same thing.
Jamie: Okay.
Tyler: And at the end of the day, the judgments that they're cashing out, are very compatible.
Jamie: Okay.
Tyler: Yeah.
Jamie: Great. It's more complicated than I thought.
Tyler: That's right. Yeah.
Jamie: Yeah. I'm not surprised by that. All right. So one God and the three persons, are all God.
Tyler: That's right.
Jamie: And so, how does a doctrine... So let me... I mentioned this just very briefly before we started. I'm on a mission trip about, I don't know, six, seven years ago, with my buddy Benjamin Quinn, from Southeastern. And he meets this guy on the flight. From Tokyo, to Taiwan. Strikes up a conversation. Briefly, gets to talk about the gospel. The Taiwanese are super hospitable, generous people. He wanted to host us. So he invited Benjamin to come to a dinner with him and his friend, and invite anybody he wanted to invite. So I got, invited.
Tyler: Wow.
Jamie: So me and Benjamin go to dinner one night, with these two Taiwanese dudes. Super kind, gracious and everything. And we sat down over dessert, and we start talking about the difference of our worldview on these big questions about God, for example. And so, we were trying to unpack this discussion about the Christian concept of God. And the Trinity comes up, and they looked at us. They'd never heard of this at all.
Tyler: Yep.
Jamie: And I remember myself and Benjamin, trying to unpack this idea of the Trinity, to two very Eastern worldview folks from Taiwan, that had no frame of reference just for the concept of God by itself, almost. Let alone, the concept of three in one. And I can remember as we stumbled through... I mean, we stumbled because it's a difficult doctrine. But it was also, we felt the weight of the cultural and conceptual disconnect, very heavily. And as we tried to unpack that idea, I remember these two guys just looked at us like we were the craziest people in the whole world for believing such things.
And, I don't know. I'm reminded from that as I remember back that story, and reflect on that story, that there really is a strangeness to this. And I don't mean that in a bad way. It's just, wow. That's an idea you and I probably, wouldn't have just come up with.
Tyler: Yeah.
Jamie: So how do we go from Jesus is here, crucified, dead buried, raised. Ascends to heaven. And now, we affirm this.
Tyler: Yeah.
Jamie: How does this doctrine form? That's a big question, I know.
Tyler: Yeah, it is.
Jamie: We can come back and do more podcasts on it later.
Tyler: Okay.
Jamie: But in a nutshell...
Tyler: I mean, how does the doctrine come about? Yeah. I mean, that's a good question. How do you get from crucified, resurrected Jesus, to father, son and spirit, eternally begotten, all these things we say?
Well, I think it just becomes pretty apparent, if you just reflect on how the gospels narrate who Jesus is and what he's doing.
Jamie: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tyler: And so, the fact that it's Jesus of Nazareth who dies on the cross, and that you're reading the opening words of the new testament, right? And the gospel of Matthew and.
Jamie: Right.
Tyler: And you have the series of begetting.
Jamie: Right.
Tyler: So and so began... but then it comes to Jesus. And then all of sudden, it changes to a passive form. And then, so and so begat Mary. Of whom, was begotten Jesus. And so, all of a sudden... and Joseph is never referred to as, his father. And so, there's this question of, well, who is Jesus' father?
Jamie: Right.
Tyler: And that lingers over until the baptism. And then of course, God, the father speaks from the cloud and says, here's my beloved son. And who I'm...
And the spirit descends upon him. And so, you have this picture in the Jordan for us, of the Trinity, presented to us. And so really, it starts to form at the very outset. In terms of who this one is, right?
Jamie: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tyler: Who is our savior? He is himself, God. He's Emmanuel. God with us. And so, that's really what lends the cross. It's power, right?
Jamie: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tyler: Is that, it's God dying on our behalf.
Jamie: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tyler: And also, because the son is intrinsic to the very life of God and the blessedness and immortality that is God's. Well, it enables us to actually understand his death in the terms, the new Testament, sets it forth for us. Which is, a human death, right?
Jamie: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tyler: It's not some kind of mythological, divine death, or something. I mean, it's a very human death. There's a human agony. But the fact that it's Jesus that dies, well, that's actually what gives his death power.
Jamie: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tyler: Because, the cords of death cannot hold him. Of course he's going to rise again, because he has life in himself, like the father does.
Jamie: Right.
Tyler: Viewed from the perspective of who he eternally is, it's the son of the father. The outcome in retrospect, is pretty...
Jamie: It's determined.
Tyler: Its something we can anticipate, right?
Jamie: That's right.
Tyler: But it wasn't for the disciples, because they didn't quite understand the fullness of who he is.
Jamie: Right.
Tyler: And they wouldn't, until the spirit had come upon them. And the spirit enables them to recollect everything he had taught them.
Jamie: Right.
Tyler: And the resurrection is this open declaration. The son. He really is the son of the father, in the full stop sense of the term.
Jamie: Right.
Tyler: So the doctrine starts to form basically, as the spirit and dwelled apostles in early church, are starting to reflect back on what just happened.
Jamie: Right.
Tyler: Yeah. Okay. And they're starting to realize who it is they follow.
Jamie: Right.
Tyler: And as the spirit calls to mind everything that Christ had taught them, they couldn't really understand fully.
Jamie: Right.
Tyler: And that's where we find ourselves.
Jamie: Yeah.
Tyler: Is in that age of the spirit, where the spirit is calling to mind all of Christ's words, and we're learning who he is, right?
Jamie: And it seems to me, as they're recalling all the things he said and taught, it's also, they're recalling the things that he did. I mean, he's doing some things along the way that frankly, humans don't have the ability or the attributes to do. He's raising people from the dead, he's causing blind people to see. He seems to have these miraculous powers that only a divine being could have.
Tyler: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jamie: So there's some divinity there, set against the backdrop of the continued narrative that he teaches and speaks, where he refers to himself as the son and father. So there seems to be this distinction there, son, father. And yet, shared nature as well. That seemed to be on display in the gospels.
Tyler: That's right.
Jamie: Yeah. So, okay.
Tyler: Yeah.
Jamie: So really, the church is wrestling with what we just saw.
Tyler: That's right.
Jamie: And what we just had on display.
Tyler: Even though the weirdest aspect of that is, it's not really... I mean, because there are miracle workers throughout the Bible. I mean you have, resurrections taking place in the old Testament, right?
Jamie: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tyler: But in the way John narrates it, at least. And in the gospel of John, the most definitive sign of Jesus's divinity, is a crucifixion.
Jamie: Wow.
Tyler: I mean, it's the crucifixion.
Jamie: Yeah.
Tyler: That's the moment of his glorification, by the father.
Jamie: Yeah.
Tyler: I mean the crucifixion is tethered to the resurrection.
Jamie: Sure.
Tyler: Really, it's the cross and resurrection that's the real sign that this is the Lord of life. And even death. Not even death has a hold on him.
Jamie: Huh. So I've thought about it from the end of John's gospel, at the resurrection. Jesus' own resurrection, but not as much from the crucifixion.
Tyler: It's all the pieces. I think, for John it is.
Jamie: Yeah.
Tyler: I mean, not to downplay the miracles and stuff. I just think in John, at least, they all focused on the cross.
Jamie: Yeah.
Tyler: Which is, maybe even makes the doctrine even stranger, I guess.
Jamie: Yeah. All right. Let me ask the question here, and I'll give context. So then, why is the doctrine important to us?
Because if there is going to be a cult or a heretical group that comes along... typically, what a cult and a heretical group does is, they just begin picking and choosing the doctrines they affirm and don't affirm. And almost universally, the one they'll lop off, is the Doctrine Of Trinity. That one's going to go. But Christianity... I mean, look. It is strange. And yet, we affirm this.
So, why? It seems to be, because this is an important doctrine. So, speak to that for just a moment. Why is this such an important doctrine?
Tyler: I mean, we could really spend all of the, how many other podcasts you want to do, just talking about why it's important. But if I had to just narrow it down to -
Jamie: Hey, look. I need material for a long time.
Tyler: Okay.
Jamie: We could do just [inaudible 00:16:10].
Tyler: I think that if I had to just have a nutshell answer, I don't know. Here's just what comes to mind in the moment. I think first of all, it helps us to understand the gospel, right? This is something that Fred Sanders articulates really helpful in his book, The Deep Things Of God.
Jamie: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tyler: He just talks about how people in the PU, may not be Trinitarian theologians, in the sense that they can cross every T, dot every I. But even the most, unreflective believer knows to some extent, they have to know to confess their baptism. They have to know that somehow, God is their father. That Jesus is gone, and Jesus lives inside them and by his spirit. And that's what he calls, tacit Trinitarianism.
Jamie: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tyler: So the very structure of the gospel, of the new covenant promises and stuff, it just Trinitarian to its course. So you really don't have a gospel, without a Trian God, okay? But you do have a Trian God without a gospel, right. Because, the Trinity is obviously the author of the gospel.
Jamie: Right.
Tyler: But we learn about the Trinity, through the gospel. And so, I think that it helps us to understand the nature of unsalvation, the nature of our savior.
I think, when you really understand the Doctrine Of Trinity... if people forgive me for speaking again, of The Doctrine. If you really understand Trinitarian theology, I think it has this shaping formative effect on us. So one of the things, just to go back to that discussion you were talking about earlier, where you and Benjamin were saying, this is a strange doctrine, right? I mean, that's part of what we have to learn here, is that, this is a mysterious doctrine. As Herman Bavinck says, mystery is the lifeblood of dogmatics. Lifeblood of theology. People who don't have much room for mystery in their theology...and it's not to say, mysticism necessarily.
Jamie: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tyler: But just, mystery. Things they cannot comprehend. They're not going to have much room for the Trinity.
And so, I think one of the immediate effects Trinitarian theology has on us, is just to remind you that, like Solomon says, God is in heaven, and you are on earth. So, let your words be few.
Jamie: Yeah.
Tyler: So even though we can say a whole lot about Trinitarian theology, and we should. At the end of the day, we really have to recognize, there are real limitations here.
Jamie: Right.
Tyler: Because, we didn't come up with this thing.
Jamie: Right.
Tyler: It's been revealed to us. And we learn more about it, as we attended to Jesus' words.
Jamie: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tyler: As we conform more to his likeness, through the spirits' work in our lives. So, as we actually enter into the depths of the mystery of our own salvation. Where the father is our father, right? Where our son ship is modeled after the son. And had, by a way of union with Christ.
Jamie: Right.
Tyler: And being worked out through life in the spirit, and not in the flesh, our perception of the Trinity itself becomes clearer to us, as our life has more of a Trinitarian shape to it.
Jamie: Yeah.
Tyler: So, that's important.
Jamie: I just underscore one thing. I want to ask you one more question before we leave. But for those of you that listen... because, we all have people that have asked us these questions, or maybe wrestled with the value of rigorous theological work, and theological thinking. Why is this important? People ask. I don't know about you. But when I contemplate God, whether it's the Doctrine of The Trinity, his Omniscience, his omnipotence, whatever it is. There is such a deep, humbling and silencing effect that it has on me, to help me realize how little bitty I am, and how grandiose he is. And that always generates all, and cultivates devotion in my heart.
And so, that's rich to think of it this way. Let me ask you this question before we close. This will set us up for some of the next podcasts we want to do. All right. If you haven't been paying attention for the last five, 10 years, then you can be behind on the discussion. What have been the hot topics for the last, say five to 10 years?
Tyler: Oh goodness.
Jamie: And if you don't mention it, we can still do a...
Tyler: Okay, good. I'm not committing myself.
Jamie: Yeah, no.
Tyler: I think some of the big things is that, obviously within evangelicalism, if we are evangelicals, I don't really know what that word means so much anymore. But within our circles, some of the stuff about subordinationism has been a hot topic, since about 2016.
Jamie: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tyler: It was a hot topic before that. Just kicked up the dust in 2016. That's petered out a little bit, but that's that's been in the air.
Jamie: Okay.
Tyler: I think one of the more interesting discussions actually has just been, how do we get to Trinitarian theology, from the Bible? That might sound weird, but that's always a constantly changing discussion. There are some immovable pieces there. But there are also some pieces that are always moving and changing, in terms of our understanding the scripture.
Jamie: The bit of a methodological type of question.
Tyler: Yeah. About how the scriptures disclose the Trinity.
Jamie: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tyler: And one of the broader discussions, I think, that the subordinationism question is a part of, is really just the relationship between the Trinity and the Christian life. Or between Trinity and politics, as it were. Life together.
Jamie: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tyler: Does the Trinity, for instance, prescribe a certain kind of ecclesiology? Or a certain kind of social ethic? Or something. And that's been some of the discussions.
Jamie: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tyler: But there have been more arcane discussions, about the Trinity and divine election. These kinds of things that have also been in some other spheres, that other people may not have heard much of. But I'd say, those have been the big discussion markers. There's also been some stuff in the past 15 years or so, based upon, how does the Trinity help us with a theology of religions?
And that's been another interesting discussion.
Jamie: Yeah.
Tyler: But those the ones that come to mind.
Jamie: Okay, cool.
Tyler: Yeah.
Jamie: Hey, super helpful. Appreciate it. I can't wait to dig in a little bit more in the next podcast. That's where we're going next, if you'll keep listening to the next ones. Thanks for joining us again, and we'll see you next time.
Hey everybody, this is Jamie and Joe again.
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