Today, Joe asks Jamie about parenthood, and, specifically, how to know when you're doing it right. They talk about fatherhood, since they're both dads, but it applies to moms just as much.
Jamie: Hey everybody, this is Jamie Dew.
Joe: I'm Joe Fontenot.
Jamie: I want to welcome you back to the Towel and the Basin podcast.
Joe: Today I'm asking Jamie about apologetics. Now we know the good side of apologetics. Apologetics, defense of the faith. Culture is constantly attacking our faith. We even see from an academic side apologetics, our program here, programs at other schools are all doing very well because there's a great hunger for apologetics. So, my question is really, when is apologetics not good?
Jamie: Okay, good question. So I would start by pointing out that I do think that we're in a good place with apologetics, in the sense that there are vastly more people prepared to give a defense of the faith today than there would have been 30, 40 years ago. And we owe that to the work of people like a Norman Geisler, a William Lane Craig, a Ravi Zacharias, a Francis Schaeffer. We could go on and on with the great evangelical apologists, CS Lewis, that really raised the banner of that.
Jamie: I think as a result of that you've got not just those types of figures, but you have really generations now of men and women that have given themselves to that. My whole academic career started with the doing of apologetics. Well actually it started with the doing of evangelism and then by encountering folks that ultimately had questions that I couldn't answer, got me into apologetics, which is then what got me into philosophy. I think in one sense we really are in a good spot with apologetics in that there's so many prepared now.
Jamie: I do think, and I do worry sometimes though, that if we're not careful, we can make apologetic efforts our first response in moments of conversation with a nonbeliever, and I would discourage us from doing that. Now this doesn't take away from the value and the merit of apologetics, but I don't know that it's necessarily the first thing we do when we sit down and start conversations with folks is launch into those types of things. So what I would encourage people to do, just in general, I can think of a lot of times actually where you shouldn't do apologetics.
Jamie: So to begin with, don't do apologetics at the beginning of a conversation, just do evangelism. Start with evangelism. I mean our purpose and our point is to share the Gospel with people, right? So when we encounter someone who's not a believer or we sense is not a believer, you don't start him with arguments for God's existence or the resurrection of Jesus or anything like that. You just use the Gospel. If there is no need for apologetics, then you don't bring it up. Because otherwise you're asking questions that haven't been asked or answering questions that haven't been asked and I don't think that that's very helpful.
Joe: That's a good point because I think a lot of people have a skeptical view of Christianity.
Jamie: Right.
Joe: But it's not simply an intellectual world, right? It's a spiritual world in the sense that the Holy Spirit is real and alive and working, and so many things happen outside of our control. Apologetics has a good function but it's not always necessary.
Jamie: Yeah, so for a lot of people the reason for their non-belief is not necessarily an intellectual thing. I mean, I definitely encounter people that way, that they don't believe in God or don't believe specifically in Christianity because of some kind of intellectual problem that they see or maybe the problem of evil or something like that. But you have a lot of folks out there that, that are not believers simply because they've never really thought much about it.
Jamie: Or maybe they've never really been confronted with the truths of the Gospel or maybe, I don't know, any other types of societal issue that could cause them not to believe. And so I think our first line of interaction with folks is just evangelism. And we do evangelism first, then we use apologetics as a tool when and where there's a need for it. And so address those spiritual matters first and use apologetics as a set of tools that are in the toolbox available should you need them, but don't assume in advance that you do need them. Just start by interacting with people.
Joe: So what are some of the signs that... Say you're talking to me, I'm not a believer, and you are presenting the Gospel to me. The moment is right and all that kind of thing, and then what are some of the things that I would wind up saying that you would say that maybe I need a switch to my apologetic mind? Here's kind of what I'm thinking is some people just sort of reiterate, "Oh, God's not real."
Jamie: Right.
Joe: Well, should you go into like a defense of why God's real or...
Jamie: Yeah. Good question. So essentially then what you wonder about is when do we know it's time to start pulling those tools out and start using those tools? So I'm a big fan of just asking questions. Let the non-believer communicate clearly with you precisely why it is that they don't believe. And to be truthful, they may not understand themselves. They might just not believe. And you start asking them questions it will start to clarify that for them. So when I encounter someone and they push back or it's clear they don't believe this or they don't want to go down those pathways, they express non-belief, I'm not going to assume in that moment that I fully understand all of the reasons that they have for not believing in God at that moment and then launch into just these generic arguments that may or may not be effective on them.
Jamie: In fact, I would even go one step farther than that. I would also say that even if they told me, "I don't believe because of say the problem of evil" or something like that, I'm still not in a place I don't think that I can fully actually address their concerns because I don't know what particular things about the problem of evil that they find menacing. Is it a logical problem? Is it an evidential problem? I don't know the answers to those questions.
Jamie: So what I'm going to do in those moments is I'm just to ask questions and I would suggest that asking questions, and let me say this also, don't get hostile, don't let your blood pressure go up. Don't start sweating and things like that. Don't get nervous. Just talk to people. Ask questions because in asking questions, you're going to do two things that are advantageous to you in that moment and to ultimately Gospel proclamation. Asking questions, number one is going to demonstrate to that person that you care about them, that you love them, that you're patient, all of those types of things. If you just launch into arguments, you forfeit all of that and you need, as a minister of the Gospel, you need to make sure that you're communicating not just with your words, but with your tone, with your demeanor, with your whole self that you care and that you're listening. So asking questions is pastoral we could say.
Jamie: Second of all, asking the questions gives you the clarity that you need so that now you can apply the ointment in the right spot, right? This is exactly what a doctor does, right? You've got a cough, you've got a cold, he asks a lot of other questions first before he gets the prescription pad out.
Joe: When did it happen? What are you doing?
Jamie: That's right.
Joe: Yeah.
Jamie: So I'm going to ask questions. They say, "Well, I just don't believe in those things." Don't ask it in such a way that it feels like you're trying to trap them, because that's just going to close them down. Remember, this is not intellectual sport. We're not in... This is not a game. This person you're talking to is not an opponent. Nobody wins or loses here. Just ask the question. Say, "Why not? What causes you to not think that way?" And they may answer in a variety of ways and just continue to ask the questions, again, not in an antagonistic way, but in a very pastoral way. Try to see if they're willing, try to see if you can pinpoint the precise nature of why they don't believe. What I've found over the years is that that's going to either, again, isolate the issue that you can begin to address.
Jamie: So imagine they say it's the problem of evil or something like that. Well, here's what a lot of people would do. They might say, "Oh, the problem of evil." Well, they've read a couple books on the problem of evil. Maybe they've read one of my books, The Five Views books, and they know the five different theodocies and the defenses and they pick the theodicy that they like the best and they just launch into it. Well, that theodicy could be designed at answering the logical problem of evil. It's very likely that the person on the airplane you're talking to doesn't even know about the logical problem of evil, which means all that work you just did is for nothing. Maybe what they mean by problem of evil is they were in a church somewhere at some point and they got hurt by a pastor or they got hurt by a deacon or they got hurt some way and they just don't understand how God's people could be that way.
Jamie: You see, that's still problem of evil-ish type stuff, but that's not logical problem. That's not the philosopher's problems. What they need in that moment is not some philosophical answer, what they need is pastoral care.
Joe: They're talking about sanctification and the lack thereof.
Jamie: That's right. So you really... All that to say, don't just assume in advance that you... Don't assume that you have these one size fits all answers that you can just apply to any contact. It'd be like a doctor walking in and he's got antibiotics in his hand and he may see a hundred different patients that have a hundred unique problems. Antibiotics are going to fix some of those problems, but it's not going to fix all the problems. And that tends to be how I see believers using apologetics. Man, they've learned a few arguments here and there and they assume that the vast sea of people that they talk to that don't believe and have intellectual problems, that it's a one size fits all problem they've got and they start trying to apply this standard answer to the multifaceted nature of the human mind and all the concerns that come up.
Jamie: And I think when we do that we, it's disadvantageous to us. And in this sense, apologetics is not helping. The anecdote... or the antidote to all of that is that just stop and talk to people. Just listen to people, let them talk. In doing so, you're expressing pastoral care and you're also getting the information you need so that you can speak to it effectively.
Joe: What I almost hear you saying, or what I think I hear you saying, is it's more about how we view a person than about how we view the process.
Jamie: Sure, absolutely.
Joe: Like the doctor patient kind of thing.
Jamie: Sure.
Joe: This is not my antagonist. You said that this is a person who's fallen victim to sin just like me.
Jamie: Right.
Joe: This is a person who needs God just like me. I happen to know a little bit more about God if I'm a believer and so let me help them get to that point.
Jamie: Sure. Yeah. You do, you pay attention to the person. So I mean the person you're talking to is much more important than the methodology that you use and it's... Folks that study apologetics will understand what I'm talking about there. There's been decades and decades worth of hot debate amongst denominations, mind you, on methodology. Should we be classical? Should we be evidential? Should we be reformed? Should we be presuppositional? I would say just sit there and talk to people. Talk to people and then respond accordingly. And indeed there are times where bringing out evidences is very helpful. Indeed, there are times where showing folks the logical inconsistency of their thought given their atheism, ie a presuppositional approach, is very, very helpful and effective. Just talk to people.
Jamie: And I would even say as you talk to people, you're not only listening for those cues that you can begin to address to, I think you're also going to find, and this is just me and some people might not like me saying this, I think you're going to find there's some conversations you just don't even entertain at all.
Jamie: So for example, if I'm sitting next to somebody and it's clear, I mean let's imagine two scenarios. Scenario one, I've got somebody and just by the way the conversation unfolds, it's a very honest conversation, it's not hostile. There's open communication and this person's not a believer. I'll absolutely engage that, absolutely, and I'll talk the whole flight if that's what it takes to do that. If on the other hand scenario two, I've got a person that man, it's clear they're not interested in anything other than just sparring, I don't take the bait. I'm not doing that. I think that's throwing your pearls before swine and-
Joe: That's kind of a hard lesson to learn though.
Jamie: It is very hard.
Joe: I feel like I've wasted... I shouldn't say wasted. I've used so many years in scenario two.
Jamie: Yeah. Well, and those moments we treat the person like an opponent. We treat the situation like a competition. And truth of the matter of it is the folks we talk to, and I think we can be this way too, they're not interested in actual exchange. They're not interested in anything other than being right. And in those moments I just, I find it best to change the subject and see if I can build a better rapport and then come back around later and see if we can salvage an opportunity to share the Gospel. But if they're not in a teachable moment, if they're not in an honest moment, then I think we're really just throwing our pearls before swine in those moments. I can think of just real quick one other scenario where I would not do apologetics.
Joe: Okay.
Jamie: And this is to put the pastor hat on for just a second. I would argue that in the moments of... so specifically I'm speaking to pastors here. So a pastor's been to seminary perhaps, they've taken the apologetics classes. They may even have 15 books on their bookshelf or a big section of apologetics in their library. They love apologetics. What I would say to the pastors out there is in the moments of tremendous grief and despair in your ministry, that is not the moment for you to put your apologetics hat on and show off.
Jamie: So, for example, in my ministry, I mean I can point to various moments and times where apologetic type questions were on the table, but it would have been foolish and inappropriate and destructive I think to go there in that moment. So for example, a suicide. You walk in the door after someone's just taken their life and the family is weeping and wailing and screeching in chaos, "Why God? Why God?" It's an honest question. It's an honest question in that moment. And let me tell you what I do not do in that moment, what I would urge folks not to do. Don't in that moment start talking about logical problems of evil, evidential problems of evil. That is just not what they're asking in that moment. What those people need in that moment are not proof of your education, what people need in that moment is your broken heart. You weep with them, you cry with them, you hold them up, you stand with them, you bear up with them in that moment. You don't do that. They don't need an intellectual in that moment, they need a pastor.
Jamie: Now, the time may indeed come when they're in a better place and things are stable, where you've got to come back or they circle back with you.
Joe: Trust has been built through those harder times.
Jamie: That's right. Or a scenario where a little child has died and you walk in and the mom is just falling apart or the father or the grandfather or what have you is just in despair and they're asking the same questions. I just, I think in those moments, that's not the time to show off your education. Now, I mean, I've faced situations where I walked in the room right after a child died and I wasn't doing that. A child died on a Monday and the funeral's on Friday, and between Monday and Friday I probably had 10 or 12 people come to me inside the church and then also just sort of friends of the church that were believers and just look at me and say, "Jamie, I don't know. I don't know if I can believe this anymore." Because the death of this child had so rocked them.
Jamie: And in those moments, I think pastorally understand that. I mean I get it. And Jesus... John Chapter 11, Jesus seems to get this as well when Lazarus is dead and the ladies come to him and they're broken and they're saying, "Lord, where were you?" I mean they call Him out in some ways that I don't know if you should do that, and yet, watch how Jesus responds. He doesn't blow up on them. He weeps with them and He grieves with them and then He gives them hope and reassurance of resurrection. I think in that moment, Jesus is a model for us about how we respond.
Joe: I had never thought of that story as an apologetic scenario.
Jamie: An apologetic cue.
Joe: Yeah. They're asking an apologetic question and He chooses not to answer it.
Jamie: Yes, and He chooses to be pastoral.
Joe: Exactly.
Jamie: What He doesn't do in that moment is help them make sense of God's providential care. But what He does do is He points them into the future to hope. And as such, I think He models for pastors there how we respond in those moments. Just grieve with them for a moment. Let that grief have its place. They need to... As hard as it is, and as awful as it is, they need to grieve in this moment. It needs to gush for a season. Help them with that though, because they do need people to bear them up during those moments. Don't show off your education in those moments.
Jamie: So in this case I was talking about earlier, the kid dies on a Monday. Between Monday and Friday when the funeral was, I had a lot of people coming to me saying, "I don't know about this anymore." In that moment, I felt somewhat obligated to address what in the world God could be up to here and why this could happen when I did the funeral. I didn't try to go into great detail, but I did frame the situation within the whole of the Christian story of creation, the goodness of God's creation. God Himself is beautiful and good and He made a world with sugar and laughter and love and all these things. And the Christian story explains all that stuff, doesn't it, given the goodness of God.
Jamie: But there's more to that. There's a fall and you have thorns and thistles in the ground. You have difficulty in sorrow, you have pain in childbearing, meaning even our little children now are going to suffer from this. And the Christian story also explains what we're going through today, doesn't it also? And then like Christ taking that cue from John 11, point them now to the future. That Christ is coming. So creation, fall, redemption, the advent of Jesus Christ who steps into this world to be the atonement for our sins and to make redemption. And then the promise of glorification at the end. We are in a day in a moment of sorrow and we have to let that sorrow have its place. But we do so looking forward to the return of Jesus Christ when He will return and make all things new.
Jamie: And so the big takeaway from that, that's sort of getting into the weeds of how as a pastor I walked through that over the years. But to answer the initial question of the podcast, when do we not do apologetics? I'd say a couple things. You don't do apologetics, just first and foremost, you do evangelism. Do evangelism, and then if you need to do apologetics, do it. Second of all, don't do apologetics if you're throwing your pearls before swine. And then thirdly I'd say, don't do apologetics in the moment of great sorrow and grief. Just be a pastor to them. Just love them. Even if you're not yourself a pastor, you can still be pastoral.
Jamie: So be pastoral to them in those moments, and let apologetics, this great gift to the church and the evangelical world and Catholic world, they've done some good apologetics too and we sort of share the same resources when we make a lot of our arguments. There's great resources there and great training that's there and it's a gift to us, but it's not our frontline answer. The Gospel is what we preach. Evangelism is what we do, and we use apologetics when and where necessary to help us do that.
Joe: Excellent.
Jamie: Hey everybody, this is Jamie and Joe again.
Joe: If you liked this podcast, would you leave us a rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts? That helps other people find it.
Jamie: And if you have any questions, we'd love to hear about them. Just go to jamiedew.com/questions and send them in that way and we'll take a look at the most frequently asked questions and give them a shot.