Joe asks Jamie how he sleeps. Or, er, how he rests. Specifically in light of having a lot on his plate.
Jamie: Hey, everybody. This is Jamie Dew.
Joe: And I'm Joe Fontenot.
Jamie: And we want to welcome you back once again to The Towel & The Basin podcast.
Joe: And so, this week, I am asking Jamie, how you sleep?
Jamie: On my side, with three pillows.
Joe: Let me back up.
Jamie: Warm comforter.
Joe: So, context, before it just goes completely off the rails. Context-
Jamie: I was a dean.
Joe: You're a dean, right?
Jamie: Yeah.
Joe: Vice president-
Jamie: And I've been a pastor.
Joe: Pastor, all this kind of stuff but now you're the president.
Jamie: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Joe: Okay. And there's I think a really big difference between the number two level and the number one.
Jamie: Oh, gosh. Man, on that note, I used to sit at Southeastern on Dr. Akin's cabinet, and man, I could spout off all I wanted to about what I thought we needed to do. Then I'd go home and I didn't have to worry about it. And now, no, there's a huge difference between these two seats.
Joe: Now, somebody's spouting off about what-
Jamie: That's correct.
Joe: And you go home and have to worry about it now.
Jamie: Oh, man, let me tell you, every day it's a... You're pulled in a million different directions. And look, I'm grateful for the opportunity but these are the challenges. You're pulled in a million different directions about all sorts of things. Secondly, you've got... What's interesting is, I guess I knew this was going to happen but it's still been interesting, nonetheless. Everybody tries to commandeer your authority and your influence.
Joe: What do you mean?
Jamie: So, shoot you an email, "Hey, are you going to speak out on this issue?" "Man, no, I'm not." I'm not going to... What I'm not going to do is, is a... And this is not the point of the podcast, but what I'm not going to do is just every time somebody expects me, I'm supposed to do something. I'll do what I feel like the Lord leads me to do. So there's that kind of pull. Everybody's an expert, everybody has opinions. And so, it can be a cloud, real quick, of confusion.
Joe: And when you are the leader, it really is kind of a buck stops here kind of thing. So in our case, of course, we have the trustees and all that kind of stuff and you have popular opinion, which matters and all this sort of thing. But really, when it comes down to an execution level, it's so different because when you're at a second level like vice president or something like that, you can always essentially say, "Well, I tried."
Jamie: That's right. That's right. And ultimately, it's his decision or her decision to deal with and to live with for the rest of their life. In this case though, early, I can remember, I didn't sleep well. The reality, the fact, and the awareness that what I would do next in this role would have a deep and long-lasting impact on not just this institution and her students, but by extension therefore, the churches of the Southern Baptist Convention, the 46,000 of them. And not that I'll impact all of them. They all come from NOBTS but still, you get the point. The churches of the Southern Baptist Convention and therefore the convention as a whole and her mission, oh my gosh, if I get it right, then it blesses all of that. If I get it wrong, then I hurt that, and the kingdom way to that. That was a... I did not sleep well for about a month and a half, I'd say, throughout the process, thinking about all of that.
Joe: Yeah. So, you told me though that you sleep pretty well now.
Jamie: Yes. So, the joke of that could be that you're just, I'm so tired at the end of the day.
Joe: After about six weeks, your body just gives up.
Jamie: Yeah, yeah. There's... I mean, look, to be frank and candid with it, I mean, I do think that there are times when that's the deal, when I'm the kind of person that when I'm overstressed or something, I sleep. So that's a part of it. But I don't think in this case that's it, because I would make a distinction between not just sleeping well, I would make a distinction between resting well and sleeping well. So, we have to remember that as you get older, there are, not to be funny about it, but there are some physiological factors of why you don't sleep well. Your bladder wakes you up all the time and stuff like that. And so, one might not sleep well for a lot of reasons but they can still rest well.
Joe: Yeah. And that's really kind of a state of mind in a lot of ways.
Jamie: So, yeah. And I think for me, I'm grateful. Now, it might not always look like this. I hope it does. I think for me though, it is definitely more than just I'm tired at the end of the day, I sleep well. I think this has been proven to be a very joyful responsibility and a very life-giving work. I like this kind of work a lot. And so, I find it quite fun and invigorating. I love Mondays. I mean, I genuinely, I love Mondays.
Joe: You love Mondays. Maybe that's the key to resting well.
Jamie: Yeah.
Joe: Loving Mondays.
Jamie: Man, well, that's part of it. Do with your life what you love doing for the kingdom. I mean, what? It's too short. Why would you do anything else?
Joe: Life is so short.
Jamie: I feel like on, on Sunday evenings, there is an excitement for me that, ah, I get to go to bed and when I wake up in the morning, I get to go back to work and I don't like Fridays. I mean I like Fridays because I get to go, "Oh, we're going to go do some fun stuff as a family."
Joe: Sure.
Jamie: But when I gather my things on Friday afternoon and walk out of my office, and to turn back to look at my office as I'm flipping a light switch off, there's always a bit of, "Oh." So, but I do think that's part of resting well, love what you do even... So therefore, even when it's hard, it's life-giving still. I think there's a couple other things too for me personally. And everybody's not the same. I would mention two things. One, I've learned in this job, and we were talking a bit about this earlier off the record, one of the beauties of getting older and not that I'm an old man at all, I'm not, but I'm at least half down, I'm at least midway through and-
Joe: [crosstalk 00:05:59] 42.
Jamie: 42. That's right. And I've had enough time in the saddle with real adult responsibilities that the edges get worn off and you learn some things here and there.
Joe: And you've got kids.
Jamie: And I've got kids and all that stuff. What I've learned in being a Christian 24 years now, there's a beauty to getting older in Jesus. There really is. There's some not so fun things about getting older. Most of that's physical stuff. But the beauty of getting older in Jesus is that you've had now the privilege of walking with him longer, watching him be faithful again and again and again. I mean, I cannot look back on these 24 years and find a single moment, a single time when he didn't know, when he didn't provide, when he didn't sustain, when he didn't come through. I can't think of a single time. Now, there were moments along the way that it sort of felt like that was happening but looking back, the beauty of history, being able to look back through your life and see the faithful hand of God along the way.
Jamie: What that has done for me, it's a reminder now that I sit in this role. And I can remember as the responsibility was sort of being put on me. That was definitely stressful and there were some moments when I didn't sleep well. But what I've learned in this job already is that my real job, I think this is the key right here, my real job in this leadership role is not to fix anything. My real job's not to change anything per se. Now, granted there's plenty of that that hasn't happened. My real job is simply to be faithful to Christ. Now, today, in this task, in that task. What falls to me right now? What is on my plate for me to do today, whether that's a faculty thing, whether that's a financial thing, whether that's a political thing in the SBC? My job is simply to be faithful in this very moment. And that's hard in some ways, but there's also a simplicity to that, that if we can wrap our heads around, it's kind of life-giving and liberating.
Joe: So I have a question. Does that mean, of course, that doesn't mean that you ignore the fixing what needs to be fixed.
Jamie: That's right.
Joe: You're still doing that.
Jamie: Because sometimes, to be faithful is to fix this.
Joe: But I guess what I hear you saying, and tell me if I'm hearing this right, is when you judge your day, am I being faithful? The question is, "Am I being faithful?"
Jamie: Right, right. I don't look at it at the end of the day as, did I... Will tomorrow, we see a numerical effect from what we just did here? I mean, there are times to think about that kind of stuff. You have to look at it as, today, did I do everything for Christ that I can possibly do? Did I make the right decision for him? If I didn't, then what do I need to do about it tomorrow? And if I can settle in my heart, going to bed that night, that, okay, I didn't get this right, I didn't handle that conversation right, I need to circle back with him or her and say, "Hey, man, I'm really sorry that came out that way." Or maybe I was quick to judge how we ought to handle a particular program or something like that. And now that I think about that, I can see a little bit more clearly that there'll be an unintended consequence to that that's going to hurt the kingdom or hurt his people in some way.
Jamie: Then I'll come back to it the next day and say, "[inaudible 00:00:09:19] wait, wait, wait, let me think that through one more time." So, if I can end the day knowing that I have either A, given it everything I have for Christ and made the very best decision that I can see to make for him or B, even if I could find out that I haven't done that, at least commit myself to the next day to go in and try to rectify that, then that helps me a lot, to rest at night knowing that I'm either I have done or I'm on the pathway to giving myself most fully to Christ. And that's been life-giving to me and liberating to me.
Joe: Okay. Let me ask you a question. A person listening to this is not resting well because they have leadership responsibilities. Maybe they have stress, maybe they got to pay the mortgage, whatever it is. You know what I mean? How does a person get there?
Jamie: Okay. Yeah. And again, I think, good question. I think all of us are different, right? It could take the form through counseling, a friend, and maybe formal counseling. Maybe not formal counseling, just counsel of a friend or of a mentor, something like that that can coach you, that can guide you, that can give you a perspective that helps you to see. For me, and again, I don't want to give the wrong impression that my life is just always peace and joy. I, too, absolutely find those... I mean, I'll just be candid with you. Just yesterday, I found myself after about three or four of my first meetings in the morning, sitting at my desk, I had a rare 15 minutes where I didn't have anything in that moment. And I sat there at my desk and as I sat there, I felt it overwhelming me and I finally just articulated to the Lord, "I'm agitated. I'm grumpy. I'm bordering on a foul mood here." And I didn't know why.
Jamie: So, I go back into the back room of my office. I have two little rooms. I have the main office, I have a back room with my prayer bench in there. And I just got quiet and I got still, which brings me the last thing I'd say, right? I got quiet. I got still. I acknowledged before God and the quietness and the secrecy of that room. "God, I'm grumpy. I'm agitated. I feel in this moment prone to snap at somebody, to be quick with somebody, to be terse with somebody and hurt them, and I don't want to do that with whoever walks through the door." There was nobody in particular I wanted to do that with.
Joe: Just the next random...
Jamie: Yeah, I mean, it could be anybody.
Joe: Because you're just in that state of mind.
Jamie: Yeah. I was afraid that I might, in that moment, be quick or be sharp or something like that and hurt somebody and I didn't want to do that. And so, it was just a matter of stop what I'm doing for a second, hush the busy-ness of my life, still everything I can, and just go be quiet and still before the Lord, acknowledge that fact before him and ask him the question, "Why? Help me to see, where did this feeling begin with me today?" And quietly and in submission to the Lord in the silence there, that backroom of my office, just allow him to retrace my steps of where that feeling started to set in.
Jamie: And sure enough, I begin to find, it was in that moment in that meeting where somebody said something that was a little eh, or somebody in this said this or presented me with these facts that are really troubling or whatever else, and the accumulation of that, here I sit. Okay, so now I see it. "Hey Lord, what do I do now?" And that and so, now I'm beginning to put my finger on the sources of my agitation or my stress. What I don't want to do is just proceed forth through the day in those moments or then try to bury it in my psyche somewhere and go to sleep.
Joe: Right.
Jamie: Because then it's just turmoil.
Joe: Right. Because then you don't have the rest.
Jamie: That's right.
Joe: So, did you find... So I have a question about that. Did you find in this particular case that it was something that it was unresolved, so it agitated you for whatever reason, and you did not address it?
Jamie: Right.
Joe: Deal with it then mentally?
Jamie: Well, in this case, you had been a real jerk.
Joe: Again.
Jamie: No, nothing like that and no, it was a... Yeah, so it was, sometimes, yeah, there'll be those moments where I realized that was said or... And in those cases, I think best practice is to maybe say nothing. Maybe give that person and that brother or that sister the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they didn't really didn't mean it that way. If that continues, then maybe we now have to have a conversation.
Joe: But it was at first, a reframing of the mind essentially.
Jamie: Right. Sometimes, to be honest with you, most of the time it's not anything anybody else said to me. Most of the time, it's something I said, that I now realize, "Jamie, you're a president. When you say that kind of thing...
Joe: You can't talk like that anymore.
Jamie: Yeah. When you say that kind of thing, even though you think you're just being you, you might actually be stressing some people out. Now, I'm worried that I'll hurt somebody. That's what's bothering me is that I'm a little bit hurt or worried that I'm causing strain or stress for somebody. So, it's time now for me, at that point, if I sense that, then I feel like I have, you have, we have a duty before God and before our fellow brothers and sisters to go to them and say, "Look, man, I just want to make sure I didn't come across the wrong way. And if I did, I'm really sorry. Let me tell you what I actually mean and what I don't mean" and kind of help them interpret me. Because I've learned in this role that, yeah, the seat and the title carry with it, whether I like it or not, a weight and an authority that can bless or hurt.
Joe: And I think it's... Yeah. I think what you said, whether you like it or not, is kind of key because people are going to project what that means or they're going to assume what that means. You know what I mean?
Jamie: Right.
Joe: Like you said this and maybe they've never seen you joke around or something like that, or maybe this is a serious issue, you know what I mean? So they're going to internalize all that and they're going to want to do a good job and...
Jamie: Right.
Joe: Yeah.
Jamie: Yeah. And I've learned over the years, I know it's this way for me, I think it's this way for most people, the mind is, it's like space. They say space hates a vacuum. This is why airplanes fly, right? The wind goes over in a certain way, creating a vacuum and it hates it, so the wind rushes in, creating lift. Space hates a vacuum. Psychologically, the mind hates a vacuum. So, for example, your boss walks in and says, "Can we get that done today?" Now, he may be in a really good mood when he says that, but when you hear that, you now immediately, "Uh-Oh."
Joe: I haven't done...
Jamie: Yeah.
Joe: I have missed the expectation.
Jamie: The uh-oh radar goes up. And now your fears and your negative feelings about him or her, now all come to sit on your shoulder, and help you look at that statement through the lens of your worst fears.
Joe: Yeah.
Jamie: And he may not have meant any of that, right?
Joe: Yeah.
Jamie: Now, he may, but he may not have meant anything. So, I've learned about myself, I've learned about my friends, I've learned about my family, I've learned about just... It's just human nature. We interpret things through our feelings, through our fears, through our hopes, through all sorts of things. I think, for example, the part in the movie Dumb And Dumber, when he asked, "Is the chance one in a thousand?" And she says, "It's more like one in a million." And then he famously says, "So you're telling me there's a chance."
Joe: You're telling me there's a chance.
Jamie: Yeah, he's interpreting her answer through hope. Right?
Joe: Exactly.
Jamie: So, our desires or our emotions or whatever else will cause us to interpret things in some ways. And so, with that in mind, I just, if something bothers me, if I sense that something's bothering someone else, and then those things will play a role. I mean, so there's... All that to say anyway, there's all sorts of things that may cause a person to have an unrest.
Joe: Yeah.
Jamie: But solitude and silence for a moment before the Lord is for me at least the clearest way to get at that the fastest.
Joe: So, I've definitely experienced this as well. It's almost like there's a social and self-awareness, that you kind of only get when you see God. When you had that reflection, that time when you're with God and all of a sudden it's like... And I think sometimes that brings you down to where you need to be.
Jamie: Yeah.
Joe: Because you were up so high.
Jamie: That's right.
Joe: What you have to do is killing you. Or sometimes it brings you up to where you need to be, because you're repeating yourself.
Jamie: That's right.
Joe: And God loves you.
Jamie: So, one of my favorite philosophers to read is Pascal. And Pascal notes in the Pensees that we are terrified of silence and stillness. We are deliberately, we go on and on and on and on and on about how busy we are. And he asked the question, "Why are we so busy?" I mean, we're busy. He argues because we want to be. And so, for example, we turn the radio on, we turn the TV on, we make sure that we're in conversation. We always got... What we don't do, what we're very reluctant to do is stop what we're doing, and just be still, and just be silent for a minute. He says we're terrified of that because there in those moments of silence, we see the truth about ourselves. And often, that picture is not what we want to see and we're scared of it.
Jamie: But then of course, what he's arguing is, is that no, this is actually necessary and life-giving to us. You may indeed, very importantly, see something about yourself in that moment, that you desperately need to see. And if you do, repent and find life in Christ. Now, this is me kind of adding onto Pascal at this point. Or, to your point, you may actually find in that moment a joy that you had not seen before. So, for me, making sure I keep in mind what my real job is. My real job is just to be faithful. For me, the practice of silence and stillness and solitude, even if it's only for 20 minutes or something like that, to just stop everything else, put my phone down, put the computer away, get away from the phones, get away from people, turn the radio off, and just be still, gives me an ability at least to see a lot more clearly where I'm at.
Joe: Yeah.
Jamie: And that brings peace.
Joe: That's good.