Today Joe asks Jamie about staying humble while excelling in academia...especially since Jamie has two PhDs -- a fact some would point to as the opposite of humility.
Jamie: Hey, everybody. This is Jamie Dew.
Joe: And I'm Joe Fontenot.
Jamie: We want to welcome you back once again to the Towel and Basin podcast.
Joe: Today, Jamie, I want to ask you a question about humility.
Jamie: Okay.
Joe: Okay. This is a theme, a concept that you have talked a lot about.
Jamie: Okay.
Joe: Briefly, just tell me, kind of in a nutshell, how vital is humility to Christianity, to living the Christian life?
Jamie: Sure. Yeah, I mean, I don't think... It seems to me that pride and arrogance are antithetical to the Christian life itself. To be prideful is to be contra-Christian. I'm not saying somebody's not a Christian because we can all behave that way. We all have our moments, but we do have to remind ourselves and be very clear that God hates pride, and it doesn't matter if that pride is found in some lost person or one of his own beloved children.
Jamie: When God sees pride in us, he hates it. When God sees humility in us, he sees his own son. I think you could... In the Old and New Testament, it's everywhere, all over the Old Testament. It's all over the New Testament. It is the embodiment found in Christ. I mean, he is this... "Though He is God," Paul tells us in Philippians 2, "He humbles himself, makes himself nothing." He says in Mark 10, "The son of man does not come to be served, but to serve and to give his life a ransom for many." It is the way of Christ, and so when we see this in our lives, it is something that has to be checked. It's something that has to be repented of and turned from. In short, I just say God hates pride, and he thinks that humility is beautiful. So, if we want to live our lives in ways that are beautiful and pleasing to God, then that is the way of humility.
Joe: Okay, all that sounds great.
Jamie: Yep.
Joe: But-
Jamie: Thank you. I appreciate it.
Joe: Oh, stop it. But, you have two PhDs. All right. Let me frame this. If pride is saying, "Hey, look at me," when in reality we're meant to glorify God, a PhD is quite an accomplishment. Did we really need two?
Jamie: So, you're saying I'm arrogant?
Joe: Did I say that?
Jamie: Well...
Joe: No, this is a question.
Jamie: Yeah. I mean, I guess certainly... I mean, I am. I'm beating the drum right now on this and maybe yeah, because there's a real context in my life. Yeah, okay to be honest with you, to be straight up, I'm a recovering arrogant jerk, especially, I would say, thinking back on my life and the things that motivated me in my education that caused me to pursue this.
Jamie: There's absolutely moments in my life, seasons of my life, where it mattered to me very deeply what people thought about me. I mean, I don't come from much. I'm a blue collar kind of guy. I grew up in a very broken home. I struggled academically my whole life. I graduated high school with a 1.6 GPA. I couldn't read until I was fourth and fifth grade. If I'm honest, yeah, especially the first PhD I did, there were good, noble reasons. I don't want to say it was all bad. There were certainly good, noble reasons. I mean, I genuinely felt like this is what the Lord wanted me to do, and I knew that I could serve the church better if I was prepared. Something I love to talk about, too, I've gone through some very serious seasons of doubt and struggle in my life.
Jamie: In fact, both of the PhDs were born against a backdrop of me struggling in some ways with my faith in some ways, so you could argue that I did two PhDs because I went through two pretty dark seasons of doubt and struggle, and I just needed to get at this. So, that was real.
Joe: So, they're very functional at the time.
Jamie: They were. They were, but especially the first one. I have to admit that, during that season of life, especially, it mattered to me in a way that it shouldn't have mattered to me, and that, frankly, I'm a little ashamed of that people think rightly about me, coming out of the backdrop. Maybe that's just human psychology in that sense to... People pick on you. I got picked on all my life as a dummy, as a stupid kid, and all those things, and it hurt. It hurt very deeply. It shaped me.
Jamie: So, there was a sense in that first PhD of getting a bit of a monkey off my back, being able to prove to myself, being able to prove to everybody else, that I could do good work and things like that. I look back on that, and I remember the season of my life that I went through. There was a... I refer to it as the dark years. There weren't gross, heinous sins going on in my life, necessarily, in that season, but man, that is a season that, when I look back on it, it's a miracle that I didn't lose my faith because I had become something that I don't ever, ever, ever want to be again.
Jamie: I don't know how to explain it other than about eight years ago, God started a process in my life of just helping me see it in my own life and helping me to see just how ugly and repugnant that was to him, and it broke me, and it still breaks me. It breaks me, and yet, I know that I'm still just as prone today to do that. The second one, yeah, I can... The second one, especially, is kind of maybe what would make it hard for someone to hear the drum beat of humility coming from me. But the second... What I would just simply say is I don't hunt. I don't fish.
Joe: I just do PhDs.
Jamie: I don't play golf. No. I'm not doing any more. I'll tell you that. But I genuinely enjoy... especially then... I enjoy the intellectual side of our faith. It's fun to me to read on these things. It's fun to me to have these conversations. It's fun to me to write and to think through problems, and so I was kind of bored, to be honest with you. I missed school. I also had become obsessed, via the doubt that I was talking about a minute ago. I had become obsessed with life after death and, specifically, questions pertaining to the soul, which we've just done some podcasts on and have released, I think, by this point. But those types of questions consumed me, and I was bored, and I wanted to scratch those itches.
Jamie: Professionally I was in a moment where I kind of needed some stronger credentials in philosophy, and I started it and thought to myself, "Well, this is kind of fun. This is a hobby. I'll just work on it in kind of the same way people have a hobby." If I never finished, then I never finished. I totally was on board with the possibility that I might never finish that other degree.
Jamie: But anyway, I can get that, and I have to admit that there are times in my life where I've just been an arrogant jerk and still can be, but the Lord has been gracious to me in reviving my faith, and my strength, and bringing me through those moments. Now, I can see, not perfectly, but a lot more clearly, that what's beautiful to God, and I think really what we all intuitively and naturally see as beautiful anyway, is servanthood. Granted we live in a world where it's antithetical to that, right? We live in the world of the showboating, and the peacocking, and the one-upmanship.
Joe: [crosstalk 00:08:03] kind of false humility.
Jamie: Yeah.
Joe: ... and still to get something.
Jamie: But when we see genuine humility, it is beautiful, and it's inspiring, and it's life giving, and it's the way of Christ.
Joe: In your case, personally, do you think the path that you took got you closer to that understanding?
Jamie: Yeah, I do. I mean, in some ways, I look back on my life. God corrects us in so many different ways, and as I look back on my life, I can see he's used hard things and difficulty many, many, many times in my life. I mean, so just let me hit rock bottom and bounce out of that. He's used hardship to correct me before. God has also used blessing to correct me. I mean, it's an interesting thing in God's providence. Sometimes, the way he's corrected me is by, "Okay, you want X? I'll give it to you," and I get X, and X is as good as I thought that it would be, and yet, I'm still not satisfied.
Jamie: I mean, so for example, X, becoming a professor of philosophy at Southeastern Seminary was a dream for me. I mean, it was a dream. At 34 years old, God let me have it, and I have to admit to you, Joe, it was as good as I thought it would be. In fact, it was even better than I thought it would be. I loved it, and yet, I wasn't satisfied. I got the degrees. It was as fun as I thought it'd be, and yet it didn't satisfy me. In those moments, that was kind of the beginning where God's helping me see now. Do you remember, Jamie, the satisfaction that you had in just me before you had any of these titles, or any of these accomplishments, or any of those things, and wasn't that sweeter than these things? The answer was, resoundingly, yes. I remember the joy of my initial faith, the joy of, though I had nothing but had Christ, I had everything.
Joe: Everything.
Jamie: At 34 years old, I was looking back on that 18-year-old kid who really didn't know a whole lot, who really didn't understand a whole lot, who certainly didn't have a theological education, that nobody on earth ever thought would accomplish much, and I missed that. I missed the simplicity of that.
Joe: As you're saying this, one thing I hear or I think about is how God always takes us where we are, and that's okay, the idea that that's okay because I think kind of implicit in all of this is sometimes we have to go through things to see what God wants us to see. So, I think it's sometimes wrong to just look back at our mistakes and say those were bad, essentially, because if we get good out of them, it's not that we should do them again, but it's just the idea that God is truly a redeemer. He is powerful enough to fix us.
Jamie: Yeah. He is. Now that I sit where I sit, I look back through the whole journey, and it's astounding to me because nothing has been wasted, I mean, even the foolish things that I did and the dumb things that I did. I mean, God has been... He is a redeemer God, and he ends up redeeming all of it. The whole story gets used to prepare me in ways for what I do now. I mean, now, I didn't set out to do any of this, but God evidently knew where this was going, and man, that academic training sure is handy right now, I have to say, and the administrative responsibilities of that had in the past, man, that's sure is handy right now. I have to say. And you know what? I'm grateful I got to pastor churches and not, by the way, big old whopping churches that everybody knows about, rather obscure churches that nobody knew about. I am so glad that it was that I got to do and not the bigger more... because I understand exactly what it is like to do. So, anyway-
Joe: [crosstalk 00:12:01] people. Or...
Jamie: ... I look back on it. Yeah, I look back on all of it, and it's like, man, everything I got to do is so handy for what I get to do right now, so it's kind of cool.
Joe: I think that is cool. I have one more question on this.
Jamie: All right.
Joe: I'm thinking about the person listening to this, and they are... Everybody is, at one point or another, probably considering whether they need more education, whether they're coming at it from the point of view of, "A person like me doesn't do things like that," or whether they are coming at it from the point of view of, "I just love this, does that mean God's pushing me forward?" So, whether they are considering getting a bachelor's degree because they feel that is necessary, or whether they're considering getting a second PhD, a first PhD, a doctorate, everything in between, what is your advice to a person considering more education?
Jamie: Yeah, good question. I actually get quite often... Just yesterday, I had a student... I guess he's not a student anymore. He already has a PhD, but I get, pretty regularly, folks that already have done one that are asking the question, should I do another one? They're coming to me now because I did two, and they're like, "Hey, should I do this?" I do not standardly say, "Yes, you should do a second one." I will tell people my reasons of why I did it, and I don't think that's what everybody should do. So, across the board, just for everybody, you have to ask a number of questions. Remember the the, the beautiful metaphor of what we are found in scripture of the body of Christ. Paul employs this picture of a human body, and the diversity within that body, and the unity of that body for the kingdom function as the ideal of how we should live our lives, collectively.
Jamie: We need people in the body of Christ that can do Greek and Hebrew. I can't. I mean, I did the classes. I took the classes. I made decent grades, and there was a time when I could read some Hebrew and some Greek. I can't anymore. I'm sorry to all my Bible buddies-
Joe: Right, but we're going to [crosstalk 00:13:57].
Jamie: ... but I also want you to know that your sort of friendly judgment on me, I'm impervious to it, guys. You're never going to make me feel bad about that. It's just because, I think, biblically speaking in the picture of the body of Christ, I'm just not convinced that everybody in the body has to be able to do that. Somebody needs to be able to do it. We need people in the body of Christ that can do philosophy. We need to people in the body of Christ that can do counseling. I need my counseling friends. I need my pastoral friends to be my pastors and my counselors.
Jamie: I fit the body of Christ by potentially helping us think through delicate issues or difficult issues philosophically. Given the picture of the body of Christ, I think the question, what I'd say is, what member are you in the body of Christ? What I would encourage people to do is not just feel like there's this standard ideal for all of us regarding education. Ask the question, which member of the body are you? Now, the question is, how are you, how can you be, faithful to that responsibility? What is your responsibility within the body? Discover that first, and now pursue the education necessary that is going to help you do that well for the kingdom.
Joe: So, this is less of a could and more of a should.
Jamie: Yeah, that's right. Should you do this, given the responsibilities that God has entrusted to you? Do that. What we don't need is everybody wasting their time on tasks that God's not called them to do. So, we need people understanding very well what member of the body that they are and then pursuing that. Now, for those out there that God clearly has gifted you and called you to the academic side, and you're thinking about other degrees, well, then maybe you should pursue it. But whether that's a first one, a second one, or what a master's, or a bachelor's, or other things like that, clearly, we have to do theological education because there's some people in the body that have those responsibilities and need to do it. But to me, it's much more, at this point in life, of knowing where you fit for the kingdom. I mean, I'm just full-on aware at this point that my better service to the kingdom is not in certain areas, but my better service to the kingdom right now is in these areas, and so I think all of us have to do that.
Joe: That's really helpful, kind of just pulling back, knowing where you fit, and then starting from there. How can I do this better?
Jamie: Right. That's right.
Joe: All right.
Jamie: Hey, everybody. This is Jamie and Joe again.
Joe: If you liked this podcast, would you leave us a rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts? That helps other people find it.
Jamie: If you have any questions, we'd love to hear about them. Just go to jamiedew.com/questions and send them in that way, and we'll take a look at the most frequently asked questions and give them a shot.