Today, Joe asks Jamie about discipling someone older. Often discipleship is confused with mentorship. So what really separates the two?
Jamie Dew: Hey everybody, this is Jamie Dew.
Joe Fontenot: And I am Joe Fontenot.
Jamie: And we want to welcome you back to The Towel & Basin podcast. We didn't flip the script that time.
Joe: We did not flip the script this time. So Jamie, I want to ask you, how do you disciple someone who's older than you?
Jamie: So you're referencing I assume like a young guy goes into a church context and-
Joe: Exactly.
Jamie: Yeah. So this could be a pastor that's taken a church and he's got a good number of folks in the church older than him. It can be a youth pastor that maybe has adults, parents that are involved in serving or something like that. And yeah, I mean there's all sorts of scenarios where we find ourselves in those situations.
Joe: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jamie: And I have at various points throughout my ministry and I think I should probably start by saying truth be told, I've been in many situations throughout my ministry where though I was the one looked to for teaching and proclamation and general leadership, I still very much was being mentored by folks around me or at least still gleaning wisdom from them around me.
Jamie: So I've been in those situations many times. But then there are also have been plenty of times where... Yeah, that does happen where it's not just they're looking to me for leadership and preaching, there's genuine spiritual formation that needs to take place in the relationship. And so I pointed to a couple of things. Number one, obviously humility, the apostle Paul does tell us and instruct us to honor your elders and to esteem them properly. And so you never want to take the position of a no-it-all.
Joe: Yeah.
Jamie: Because there even if in spiritual terms or in our general walk with God you may be further down the trail than someone else. There might be other aspects of life where those folks can still be very valuable to you.
Joe: Right. And I could totally see this scenario where you finish seminary and you do know a lot and these are like... Maybe this person is doing something and it's like, "Oh gosh, this is 101 stuff.
Jamie: Right.
Joe: You know what I mean? But they don't know.
Jamie: Right. That's right. And you'll find yourself in... Especially if you've gone to seminary or something like that and you find yourself back in a Sunday school context or a Bible study context or a prayer meeting context where people will talk in platitudes or cliches and there's not a lot of depth to it, where you may want to do that. And so I think just generally speaking, you have to always start out with a posture of humility. But I would argue that's the same, even if you're discipling people younger than you. I mean, so when I disciple my children for example, I still need to exercise humility and how I do that. But I think to a greater degree when you're dealing with folks that are older than you, what you cannot do is posture yourself with them as someone who's got all the answers, figured it all out and here to save the day for them.
Jamie: We come as servants and we do so with a humble disposition. And I think that opens the door relationally for them to actually listen you and hear what you say.
Joe: Yeah.
Jamie: I mean I can just tell you right now, and I don't mean to be a punk about it or anything, but if a 22 year old came up to me and had it all "figured out" and wanted to let me know about it, I'd probably just sit back and I doubt I'd say a whole lot. I might just sit back and say, "Aha, aha," and let them talk, but probably not going to listen to a lot. And so humility in these contexts, number one. Number two, I mean in many of these situations you'll find yourself in where you may have to mentor someone older than you, it really does come down to basic stuff, right. So it doesn't mean that you've got to begin jumping into a systematic 101 with them or something like that.
Jamie: Just basic Bible knowledge and approach to Bible reading and things of that. You'd be surprised at how many folks have just never had anybody walk them through stuff like that. So helping folks find and practice an annual Bible reading plan and asking questions and kind of setting up a time to talk about some things that they've seen, helping people to get into the regular rhythms of those types of things are going to be important to do as we approach that.
Joe: That's a good point because one of the things you mentioned last time is often our default... This was a different context, but often our default is to just sort of white knuckle approach and just push through. And so obviously of course a lot of people in the church are doing the same thing. A lot of the people in the congregation. And so they might have this kind of white knuckle approach to Bible reading. And they might not really be getting as much out of it as they could. And these are kind of basic things, but at the same time-
Jamie: That's right.
Joe: ...not so obvious.
Jamie: Yeah. You do have to start with the basics on these folks. And even for people that are sort of well down the path, I mean there's still a place for us to come back to some basic instruction by way of reminder. So I point to things like that, humility, then basic Bible reading, making sure people are doing that. Then when it comes down to like mentoring them through life situations. I mean, so now let's imagine a situation where it's not just... You've got, say this guy named Doug or something like that that's never really read his Bible and he's been somewhat of a Christian in name only for all these years.
Jamie: But he's 45 years old. You're 22 years old and now all of a sudden he really wants to follow Christ. And that situation, it really does start basic Bible content and stuff of that nature. But now let's imagine a situation where you're the pastor of a church or something and there's life stuff going on. The marriage is on the rocks, a career is ending, major decisions have to be made. And they don't know what to do, and they come to you. I think in these moments, this is where our mentorship abilities just have to be earned. I mean, I can look back through my ministry and when I was 23 years old, I had teenagers that would come to me for advice and questions, but I don't think I ever had any of the adults in the church that I was the interim pastor of in Fayetteville, North Carolina coming to me for that advice.
Jamie: When I started being the pastor of a church in North Carolina, a full-time senior pastor at the age of 27, it was years in the making that families would start to look to me for advice or counsel, say when they faced a life situation with their daughter or their son or something like that. Towards the end of that ministry, when I'm say, I don't know, 35, 34, 35 years old, and I'd walked with those people for eight years, they were much more inclined to come to me with their issues and their problems. But that was not something that just immediately was entrusted to me. It took me years of walking with these people, living it out, showing it to them for them to be able to see and trust and then they'd open up.
Joe: So that's really interesting point. To start with, you're not going to get a lot of people coming to you, but eventually you will get one or two people or couples or whatever coming to you and it could feel... I would imagine it would feel a lot like, well, I know all this stuff. Why aren't these people coming to me? These people... Finally, some people are coming to me, the rest should be coming to me. And that's kind of the opposite of that first point, which is humility which like to be grateful for those first few who have kind of taken a chance.
Jamie: Yeah. Yeah.
Joe: Because if nobody else is doing it, they're kind of the leaders in that sense, coming to you first.
Jamie: Yeah. They're breaking the ice.
Joe: That's right.
Jamie: And kind of paving a way for people to start trusting me.
Joe: I mean it's make special thing.
Jamie: It is a special thing. And I remember... I mean, people would say to me, "You'd be the pastor and with your paycheck and with your title and your responsibilities, but you won't really be the pastor until several years in." And I thought going in, "No, that's not really true." But now looking back on it, it really was true. It took years and years of investing my life for the congregation to really begin looking to me. Not just for somebody to fill the pulpit, but to someone to really speak in and guide them through real things or maybe even real counseling stuff. They deal with trauma, they deal with death in some way and opening up, they would've never done that in the first year or so, but they would have after a season of time. This is where I would say to young pastors like we're in a moment... I almost sound like a little fuddy-duddy here, and I don't mean to.
Jamie: We are in a moment though where now look, absolutely biblically we are told that we equip the saints for the work of ministry. Absolutely, that is the job of the pastor, to train his people to be out there doing ministry. But I would say to you, pastor, you better be out there doing it too. Equipping the saints for the work of ministry is not an excuse for you to sit back on your laurels and do nothing but prepare theological expositions of scripture. I would say to you, man, if you're not going to the hospital when people in your church, especially key people in your church... Man, not even just key people, even the unseen people, the most humble, the seemingly most unimportant folks, man, be there for those folks.
Jamie: You win vast amounts of clout and trust and respect when you show up in the hard moments of their life. And it's not about what you say, it's not about what you do, it's just you're there. So if you're not doing those things, I think you are circumventing your opportunity, because now they're just going to see you as a talking head and as a preacher, but they're not going to see you as their pastor.
Joe: Right. And I feel like in some ways, even though a lot of people make this mistake, I feel like in some ways this is also leadership 101. Because anytime you present yourself as an authority on something, you say, "Here's my resume, here's what I've done to prove that I'm authority, that I stand here." And when it comes to relationships, if you haven't been there, you don't have anything to say.
Jamie: That's right. That's right. I mean, I can just remember, man, there were times... There's so much you win at 5:30 in the morning at a hospital in pre-op when they are about to have open heart surgery and they're scared to death because they know the stats that one out of every so-and-so, number of these people don't wake up on the other side. And their wife is scared and their kids are scared and they're just petrified of what's happening. It's 5:30 in the morning and they're back there in pre-op and they're in their little funny looking nightgown and hospital gown and they've got their IV started and doctors and nurses are plodding in and out of there and they're asking them all sorts of questions. And they're nervous.
Jamie: And then all of a sudden the curtain slides back and they see their pastor's face. And you're not there to yuck it up. You're not there doing those things. You're there to stand with him in that moment and pray with them and remind them that God is with them. I dare say that when they come out the other side of that, they're going to remember that forever, when their son is having a massive brain tumor removed from their brain and you stay with them all day there, and you wait with them in their agony knowing that he may not come out. You win stuff, you win trust, you win a voice, your voice is that much bigger. It carries that much more weight in those moments.
Jamie: And I'll just be honest with you, I've fear sometimes in the name of equipping the saints for the ministry of the church, we have gotten lazy. And I know you can't get to all of them. And so that's why you need the whole body. But we are a part of that whole body. And we better be out there doing it too.
Joe: And I think it almost sounds crass to say this, but I feel like if you do it for some, word gets around.
Jamie: Oh, absolutely.
Joe: So it's not that you shouldn't want to do it for them all, but all will know that you do it. And they know that you're a limited person. You're a single person, you can't be in multiple places and such.
Jamie: Limitations are real and most people are going to understand that, some won't. And for those folks that might not be, if there's anything you can do to win them over. But most will understand that those limitations are real. But even when you can't do that, a call, a text or anything else like that to let them know, "Hey, I'm thinking about you. I'm praying for you." Those little touches still to this day, even though we're a very electronic and media driven culture now, at the end of the day, we can be as technological and media driven as we want, we are still human beings.
Jamie: And incarnational touch of you actually being in that physical space with them in that actual moment, still means the world to them. And as a shepherd, which someone who tends after the sheep, it seems to me that's exactly where you're supposed to be. Same thing with funerals. Same thing with weddings. I mean, we so want to offload so much of these types of things, but the pastor must be a part, an essential part of making sure that we do those types of things. And so I think the same thing, look, even visiting little shut-ins and things like that. And that little old lady, it would mean the world to them and you may get more capital out of that than you could ever imagine by just being a faithful pastor to those folks.
Jamie: And so in broad brush, how do you do this? I think one, you have to have the humility before your elders because you are stepping into a bit of an unwinnable situation. Not really, but it feels that way. Because you have to mentor people older than you. Two, start off with the basics. I mean, make sure you're helping them work through basic things like here's how you read through your Bible. You win their trust by how you lived your life, and then you do basic things to make sure it's actually pastoral. And I think when we do those things and we position ourselves that way, we'll have a much greater capacity to minister, not just to those that are our age or younger, but even to those older.
Joe: So start basic. Sorry, stay humble.
Jamie: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Joe: Start basic and show up.
Jamie: That's right. That's right.