Today Joe asks Jamie about calling and personal identity. This questions focuses on separating how we've come to know ourselves, from what we do, and how we define ourselves by who we are (children of God).
Jamie Dew: Hey everybody, this is Jamie Dew.
Joe Fontenot: And I'm Joe Fontenot.
Jamie: Welcome back to the Battalion Basin Podcast where we take up a bunch of different kinds of issues.
Joe: That's right. And so today, Jamie, I want to ask you, how do we navigate change in calling, specifically how much of a person's identity should be tied to a change in calling?
Jamie: So you've been in one role and capacity and perhaps God's move in you.
Joe: That's right. And I guess what I mean is because callings can change. Take for instance, a pastor who is in a small church really felt called to it and for whatever reason, I don't know, the church just had to close down or something like that. Very small church issue and now the pastor has to take a job at a bank. Or he went from full time to part time and he's kind of struggling with his identity because his vocation and maybe even his calling has changed.
Jamie: Yeah, yeah, that's a... Gosh, that's a common situation. I've been in and around vocational ministry for years, 20 some years, 24 years, I guess it is at this point. And I've watched, I've known a lot of friends. I've been in this situation myself where yeah, precisely something like that happens. I was pastoring a church in Fayetteville, North Carolina, was an interim pastorate and left that to basically go work at a law firm. And that was a very difficult time.
Jamie: I was in a pastorate in Wake Forest, North Carolina, left that to go into academics. And the truth of the matter, we tend to think that our calling is a static thing, right? So I'm called to do X form of ministry. You go do X form a ministry and then all of a sudden five years later or whatever, that changes, your context changes, your need changes.
Jamie: And I think for all of us, that's hard in many ways. I think maybe especially for men. For men, we tend to be creatures that really do not just consider and think about what we are called to do. But as you said, yeah, our very identities get wrapped up in that. And so men in ministry, I'm a pastor and now that I'm not that we don't know how to live, we don't know how to do that-
Joe: Right, and I think you see this also really, especially in passion-driven fields. So for instance like a pastor who might have to put in way more than 40 hours to do the job. Anything that's really driven by passion, I think we see a lot of that identity coming from that as well.
Jamie: Yeah. Passionate people cleave to the role.
Joe: Exactly.
Jamie: And confuse them. I think step one is to realize that these really are different things. Who you are, what you are is different from what you are called to do in a particular moment. I think in short, so making that realization is key and I think most people that are in these situations, they are aware of that to some degree or another. But we do need to make sure that that's very clear and straight in our minds that what I'm actually doing functionally speaking within the kingdom right now is a matter of what God's called me to do. And that's not the same thing as who I am and what I am in Christ.
Jamie: So obviously who we are and what we are in Christ is we are sons, we are daughters. We were once. The book of Ephesians tells us aliens and strangers from the Commonwealth of Israel, Ephesians Two. But we were by nature children of wrath and now we are adopted as sons.
Jamie: We have the grace of God in us. That's what we are. Now, as the redeemed he does employ us in a variety of different ways and what you find in the body of Christ, First Corinthians Chapter 12, is a multitude of gifts, a multitude of talents and therefore a multitude of functions and each member is called into a function to serve the body of Christ.
Jamie: What's interesting is not only there are multitude of functions within the body of Christ. I think that's true not just across the board for the body. In my own experience from my life and for most of the brothers and sisters I've known through the last 24 years of ministry. That's actually also been true for each one of us across the duration of our life in ministry. So when I got called, I mean, man, I think the truth of the matter is none of us really know where we're going and what God is going to call us to do somewhere down the path.
Jamie: I was 18 years old, I surrendered to ministry. I knew two things that night. I knew one, that I was home in Christ and that I was his. That's an identity issue. But number two, I also knew that I would spend the rest of my life serving him. That's a calling issue. And I didn't really know what that second one meant. I really didn't. I could envision some things in my head: pastoring churches, being a missionary on the field, being an evangelist. But I never could have imagined the kinds of things that God's actually done. I've done those things along the way, the pastoring, the youth pastoring and all that stuff, but I never envisioned these last 15 years. I never would have envisioned academics, never would have envisioned being a professor or Dean, president, any of those things.
Jamie: And so all that to say, calling isn't, at least so far as I can see in my life in terms of the function, the actual specific functions, something that's always static. Now I know across the board of my life I'm called to serve him. And I don't think that ever changes for any of us, but the particular function has absolutely changed and evolved throughout the duration of my ministry. And it's not just my life. Now I look at most of my friends and brothers and sisters in ministry across these years. That's exactly what's happened to them. And I think in short, as God grows us, as God develops us, as God expands us, he brings new seasons.
Joe: Yeah. And I think we totally see that in almost every level. Like, if you look at the Bible, how the children of Israel started out, it started out as a small family that grew and then all of a sudden they became this nation. And then we moved from the Old Testament to the New Testament and things look very different and on and on. We see a constant change.
Jamie: Right.
Joe: Even if we look at our own country, the last 200 years vocationally, the role of the church and funding and all these kinds of things are always in flux.
Jamie: That's right. Yeah. And as you mature, as you grow, God's going to bring new things in. Now, occasionally along the path, things seem to take, as they say two steps forward, one step back. You know, "Hey, I finished seminary, got a church." Two steps forward. Did that for a little bit. Things didn't go so well. One step back, I'm back in a bank context.
Joe: Yeah.
Jamie: God's pathway for each of us, what we can count on, is that it is perfect. It might not make any sense to us and it might be chalked full with difficulties and hardships along the way, but in God's Providence, and we either trust that or we don't. We either believe that or we don't. And God's Providence, God is always at work to bring about maturity in us. I'm thinking here of James Chapter One. I'm thinking here of Hebrews Chapter Four. Don't despise the chastening of the Lord. For whom He loves he chastens and let patience have its perfect work. It's made perfect and complete, lacking nothing.
Jamie: I can see we have to understand and know that there are any number of reasons that that one step back may have taken place. In my own life, I remember I came to faith, man, and those first two years of walking in Christ, I have no other way of really saying it, were so romantic. Not like a mushy gushy, just using romance here metaphorically. But it was emotional and it was filled with just lavish praise and oh, look how God's using my life and man, I'm going around speaking in places and doing all sorts of things for Christ and mission trips and people are coming to faith. And yay. There was just a lot of yay in those first two years and then after that I ended up down transferring down to Cole Falls College in Georgia where nobody knew who I was and nobody knew my name.
Jamie: And whereas I had gone from speaking two or three times a week, my first, my freshman and sophomore year in college. Now all of a sudden I spoke one time in a two year period. It was as though God had put me on a shelf and silenced me. And man, I'm telling you, it about killed me. It was this massive step backwards in my mind, but it didn't make sense. It was frustrating. It was painful. I didn't really know who I was in that moment, but I think it was actually in that moment, providentially, that God helped me to see, no, this is who you actually are.
Joe: Yeah.
Jamie: And I can remember a metaphor in my mind that I use to sort of think about the struggle I was in in that moment and how I'd understood God's calling on my life. In my mind, during that first two, three year period of time of yay and excitement, all the great big things and me being "used by God". in every one of those moments there I was a sort of the center of attention.
Jamie: I was the guy on the stage, I was the guy speaking, I was the guy being brought in. And if that's what service to Christ meant, I was all for it. I loved that picture and it was as though I was the star of the play. And during those two years of silence that followed where I didn't get to preach, I didn't get to teach, didn't get asked to do anything. I mean, there's nothing. And I struggled deeply emotionally with that.
Jamie: I remember complaining and complaining and complaining to God over that season of time and the metaphor in my mind, I feel like he gave it to me just to help me understand the moment. It was as though up to that point I'd always been the star of the show and if that's what it meant to follow Christ and serve Christ, I was all in. The question that began to be pressed on my mind was is what if I don't ask you to be the star of the show? What if you're a supporting cast? And I had to struggle for that first season.
Joe: Still in?
Jamie: Yeah. Are you still in with that? Are you still down for that? And I had to be honest, I had to struggle with that for a pretty significant period of time. And then every time I'd get replaced where I'd put my yes on the table for that, he'd step it down another notch. What if it's not even supporting cast? What if you're not even on the stage? What if you don't even get to participant? What if you're the guy that comes in when the lights are off and everybody's gone and you're the only one in the building and all I'm asking you to do is sweep the floor and clean up? Are you in for that?
Jamie: And man, I got to tell you, there was a very long period of that two year window of time when I would give the Sunday school answer, yes Lord. But the truth of my heart was no.
Joe: Right.
Jamie: That's not what I signed up for. But it took me getting to the place where man, it was really beginning to look like what God had for me was just obscurity and silence. And it took a long time to get me to the place where it was like, "Lord, if that is what you have for me, then I love that and I will do that." But that's identity, right? I mean, that's who I am in Christ as a servant. I'm a child. What you call me to do is different.
Joe: Yeah.
Jamie: And my identity can't be found in that.
Joe: Let me ask you this question. You talk a lot about humility. This is a common theme, and it's a charge that you put forth. Is this where that came from?
Jamie: It is definitely these kinds of experiences with God. I wish I could tell you that, hey, I was a young buck in college and I went through this two year window of time like this and I'm mastered the lesson and I moved on. But the truth is over the last 24 years, it's kind of, my life has been up to this point, a recurring cycle of me learning those same lessons again and being reminded of them again.
Jamie: I mean, the church I pastored in Wake Forest. I mean, it was a church that... It was known throughout the town I was in, but it's a smallish town. It was not known in Raleigh, which was the big city next to our small town. Nobody knew about that church. It wasn't a church that people would know in the SBC. So I wasn't a known pastor. And, during that eight and a half year window of time, I very firmly came to believe that God has destined for me to pastor in obscurity. And I'm not going to be an academic and I'm not going to get to teach. I'm not going to do those things and I'm never going to pastor the big church. I'm never going to... I'm never going to do that.
Jamie: And again, bringing me to a place where, man, not only was I okay with that and willing to give that, but learning to take joy in that maybe God has given me something much more humble to do than I ever envisioned for myself. And learning to embrace that and to love that. So truth be told, it's probably multiple cycles throughout my life where the Lord has just forced those realities into my life and eventually it starts to take root.
Jamie: Now, having said that, man, heaven forbid, gosh, I should never say, I should never think, I should never entertain the possibility that I've fully conquered these lessons.
Joe: Sure.
Jamie: But I can tell you, sitting in the seat I'm in now, I certainly remember them and can see God's providential hand.
Joe: I think... So, I think about my own times in my own life when I went through these very difficult dark time with someone. And what I really had to come to was my own identity. Who am I really? And here's the thing, theologically, publicly, of course I always felt yes, my identity is in Christ. I would never say anything otherwise. And I really thought I believe that. But it was only in those really rough times that it showed me how much I didn't really believe that. That was more secondary, maybe even third.
Jamie: Yeah.
Joe: You know, to the real things that I looked to.
Jamie: Right.
Joe: And what I found for me, and I almost maybe I hear you saying the same thing, is that God just sort of took those things away. And sometimes maybe just because the way we're wired, it has to be time. It has to be a longer period of time for us to get used to it.
Jamie: It is. And I don't think any of this is abnormal to me or unique to me or you or anybody. I mean, look, very clearly throughout the scripture, even in the life of Jesus Christ himself, there is clearly at play time. Meaning it's not, things don't just happen now that somebody got the bright idea in their head. I mean in Luke Chapter Nine, I just preached this the two days ago in Chapel here. In Luke Chapter Nine, Jesus confronts the disciples with this question of who do men say that I am?
Jamie: And there's that debate about whether it's Elijah, John the Baptist, and then Peter says, "I say that you are the Christ of God." And so yep, gotten the theology, right. Right? So we've identified the right idea, a bright idea in the head, and the very next thing that the Bible says, and then Jesus warned them to say this to no one because it wasn't yet time.
Jamie: I mean, things had to mature, things had to develop in God's time. I mean it takes thousands of years after the first promises of Christ that the Messiah would come. Christ is going to return again and yet it's been thousands of years. Moses has to develop for decades. Abraham has to develop for decades, right?
Jamie: So the spiritual maturation of an individual is cannot be short circuited, right? It cannot be sped up and we've got to embrace the steps forward and we've got to embrace the steps back as part of what God is doing in the larger preparation force.
Jamie: Now that's assuming that we're losing... The scenario you described is you were a pastor and it shut down and you're not anymore. You're in the bank.
Joe: Right.
Jamie: You've lost a ministry. Everything I'm just saying is assuming that the shutting down or the losing is because God is at work to develop you. I mean it could also be... But even here I'd say God's developing, God can be at work and will be at work if you let him. You could have lost that ministry because you are a real bonehead. You just shot yourself in the foot, man. And there's no two ways about it. Other than you just ruined your opportunity.
Jamie: So if that's what's going on, then yeah, you're struggling with identity and calling and things like that. But that's just, I think, a place where we have a lot of lessons to learn about leadership if we're ever going to get them back.