An interesting part of Jamie's academic research has looked into NDEs (near-death and out-of-body experiences). Today, Joe asks him about that.
Jamie Dew: Hey everybody. I'm Jamie Dew.
Joe Fontenot: And I am Joe Fontenot.
Jamie Dew: And welcome back to our podcast, the Towel & the Basin again.
Joe Fontenot: Again. So right now, we're...
Jamie Dew: [crosstalk 00:00:14] listened before, maybe they haven't. I don't know.
Joe Fontenot: They have an element if they might not have listened before, which I think that can happen.
Jamie Dew: Yes.
Joe Fontenot: Maybe a long time listener is sharing this with a friend for the first time.
Jamie Dew: Yeah. Either way, we're glad to have you back, though.
Joe Fontenot: [crosstalk 00:00:28]. Yeah. We're glad to have you back. So I have a question for you, Jamie. This, I think, dives into, and to some degree into your research, your most recent research that you've done. This is about NDEs. Okay.
Jamie Dew: All right.
Joe Fontenot: I've heard this term before. I've heard this related to things that you've talked about. What is this? What is an NDE? Tell me, what is this?
Jamie Dew: So NDE refers to a near death experience and sometimes these are called out of body experiences that people will have. So there's actually quite a lot in recent history, and by recent history, I mean, say the last 20 years or so. This explosion of cases where people claim to have had some kind of outer body experience, a near death experience, hence we call them NDEs. So in these cases, essentially what's happening is that people essentially flatline. They die by what we have to measure death by. Then there's a little bit of a debate here about what constitutes death, as odd as that sounds. Is death brain death? Is death cardiovascular death? Does death happen... Where's the threshold where we can say, "Okay, the person's dead." Is death cellular death?
So while those debates amongst medical professionals, philosophers, and ethicists will rage, in short, by all standards we have to measure death and to determine when somebody has died, in these cases, people are flatlining and dying and then being resuscitated in some way where it's such that they come back and they claim to have had some kind of out of body experience in that near death experience. So that's what we're talking about when we talk about NDEs. As I mentioned, in the last 20 years plus maybe, there's just this explosion of cases where people are claiming to have had this.
Joe Fontenot: So I have two questions about this. Number one, this is essentially the same category, whether you debate if this is real or not, of the Heaven is for Real book that was super popular. I don't know, 10 or 15 years ago, whenever that came out, right? This is what we're talking about. Whether that's real or not, this is what we're talking about. Right?
Jamie Dew: Correct. That's a very... Heaven is for Real, that's a very popular level case and book that was written on this. Of course, there's a lot of controversy around that specific story as to whether or not this was fabricated or something like that. I think most people today view that one and the evidence seemed to suggest that one was fabricated and these can be, but because of that, the whole genre of experiences, so to speak, are typically viewed with some suspicion. I can explain why I think there should be some suspicion, but at the same time, maybe there's more to them going on.
Joe Fontenot: Okay. So I think there's a lot about reality that we don't know about, right? Physics shows this. When we really try to dive deep into a lot of answers or questions that we have in the Bible, oftentimes we don't have all the answers. I mean, that's just reality. So for the sake of argument, if NDEs are real, if they're happening, what would something like this show us? What do we learn from this? Or what do we take away from this?
Jamie Dew: So yeah. I love that question. Great question. So the first word of that question is super important. If they're happening, if they're happening. That's the real question here. But if they were happening, if indeed folks are dying, experiencing physical death and still having some kind of experience, and then in resuscitation, come back to tell us about that experience, then I certainly do think that this would, if they're happening, this would constitute a decisive determination on a number of philosophical and theological fronts. So let me start with the philosophical side, but listener, just hang on with me for a second, because there is a very personal existential thing and there's also a very important theological thing that we would want to underscore here of what this could mean for us. The rubber going to meet the road for us in a really big way.
So philosophically, really from the time of the 17th century forward, there's been a debate in the Western world over in this realm of metaphysics that while it sounds obscure when I say it that way is actually something most people wonder about. What are human persons? Are they bodies? Are they souls? Do non-physical souls even exist in the first place? So Rene Descartes, the father of modern philosophy, basically advocates this view called substance dualism. I won't go into all the technical details of that right here, but he advocates for this view called substance dualism, which I dare say is probably the view that everybody listening to this podcast or the majority of people listening to this podcast would actually hold even if they don't know that's what it's called. Substance dualism basically says, "Well, there's a body and the soul. The body's physical and the soul is not physical. The person is the soul."
So think about now, every single funeral you've ever been to and the preacher says, "There lies granny's body, but granny herself is up in heaven," right? That's that view because this view identifies the human person with the nonphysical soul. So Descartes takes this view, but now there's this nasty, nasty philosophical and scientific problem that frankly, this view has never really been able to answer. It's so problematic that a lot of people will just jettison the view altogether. But this problem is called the mind body interaction problem, where essentially in the case of two physical objects, say two dominoes and one domino falls and causes the other domino to fall, we know how that first one caused the second one to move. They touched each other and they transferred energy. Well, if one of these objects, body and soul, is not physical, that means it has no way to touch and it can't transfer any energy because there is nothing there.
There is no physical energy there. So in short, if minds and bodies or souls and bodies are fundamentally different things, then philosophers have raised this question and scientists have raised this question for hundreds of years now of it seems that that interaction between bodies and souls or bodies and minds could never happen. So because of that objection, there had been this wholesale move through most of western history since the 17th century. So you're talking about the 1600, the 1700s, the 1800, the 1900s and most scientists and most philosophers today reject this dualistic idea of a body and a soul. So what they hold is a materialistic view that says, "No, the human person is not a soul. There is no such thing as a soul."
It denies all those things and it simply says that the human person just is the physical stuff, the brain, the body, and all those things living. So that's materialism. Well, if NDEs are happening, if indeed there are out of body experiences like that, I think that this settles pretty definitively once and for all this debate between the dualists and the materialists if NDEs are happening, then dualism is true and materialism is false because [inaudible 00:08:18] something other than the material stuff, which is dead in those moments, exists to perceive and experience.
Joe Fontenot: So I find this very interesting because when I first look at NDEs as a concept, as a topic and I read Heaven is for Real, and I've read a few other of these other books when I was in seminary, just because I thought they were interesting. I was wanting to see what they're saying. I looked at them with an automatic view of skepticism and the basis for that skepticism was if they are going to heaven, then they can come back with a new revelation or an advanced revelation or something like that potentially.
Jamie Dew: Right.
Joe Fontenot: I mean, essentially, that's kind of what Paul says, or eludes to when he says, "This guy went up to the third heaven." I think we might've talked about that at one point. So you know, but he says, "I can't talk about these things."
Jamie Dew: Right.
Joe Fontenot: As if there are things that can be talked about. So what if somebody else talks about them? Then should we believe this? Or should we just... It's like it's much easier to lump them. But what I hear you saying actually becomes a very positive case for NDEs against the materialism, against everything we talk about when we talk about heaven and so forth.
Jamie Dew: Well, maybe let me flip that around. I think the possibility of an NDE, of a near death experience, if there are those things, it's actually a really good case for some kind of dualistic view, whether or not you're a, and we don't need to get into the technical details of substance dualism versus other kinds, but generally speaking, if NDEs are happening, then I think we, not just could draw this conclusion, we'd have to draw this conclusion. That would be that we are more than our physical bodies. There's something else that constitutes us or that we are, or that we have. The philosophers will debate the nuance of that. But at the end of the day, there's more than physical stuff. So I think if those things happen, then it settles the debate once for all.
Materialism is just false and we have to wrap our heads around the fact that we have more than just our physical bodies. Now, we may still have this lingering question about, "Well, how does a body and a soul interact with each other?" I suspect we'll never answer that question. I suspect also that that's, and I don't want to go into all the details of this right now, but I suspect that's not just a problem for dualists. Materialists actually have some problems like that as well. So at the end of the day, there are just going to be some questions we can't answer, but the reality would be there has to be more to us than just our physical body, if indeed these things are really happening.
Joe Fontenot: Okay. So yeah. That's my next question. This is all very fascinating. So are they really happening? I mean, how do we gauge that? How do we look at these things and say, "Ah," or, "Wow, we should learn from that."
Jamie Dew: Yeah. So that's, as I've mentioned a couple of times, that to me is the key question here, if they're happening. Let me just say this. I would caution the listener from building too much positively or negatively out of those popular level books, is heaven for real. I mean, so that I really do feel like that particular story gives these scenarios a very bad rap, and rightly so. I mean, if you're fabricating stories, then you deeply hurt and injure the perspective itself and the case for those things. Here's the thing, so one criticism that people have of these near death experiences are things that I started with at the beginning that some people have noted well, throughout all of history, we've almost never heard of these things happening. Then now all of a sudden, we're having just this explosion of cases where people are coming back and sort of the recent burst of them is cause for a lot of skepticism for people.
Now, look, I get that, but let me say in defense of NDEs for a minute, it shouldn't surprise us that now, unlike at any other point in history, we have this explosion of these stories because it is only now in this point of history that we have the modern technology capable of doing the things that we do. I mean, now on a daily basis, we bring people to the cusp of death and even into death for certain kinds of brain surgery, certain kinds of heart surgeries that ultimately pushes them into those realms, where we might be able to prevent cellular death, but neurological function and cardiovascular function is completely ceased. We have the ability now to resuscitate people in longer terms, under certain conditions. So for example, if a person flatlines in their body, if they induce a hypothermia, it prevents cellular death.
Whereas it used to be, you could only resuscitate somebody and their brains survive after about three to five minutes. Now you have the ability to do that in some cases for after several hours, which is funky by the way, the fact that somebody could be dead for a couple hours and get resuscitated, but it's possible because their cells have not begun to decompose because basically their body got refrigerated at the right time. So when you think about the modern technology that we have and the modern advancements that we have, yeah, we actually have the ability to put people into death or at the cusp of death on a pretty regular basis now. So I would just simply say that skepticism over the recent burst of these stories and cases, eh, I think it's understandable. If you're ever going to have those possibilities [inaudible 00:14:00] more abundant, then certainly now's the time that would happen.
Let me also say, and you referenced one of the passages. In second Corinthians, chapter 12, Paul talks about this, that he had some experience and it really does seem to be an experience that was outside of his body. Then in Philippians one, he talks about this, this embodied kind of existence. So I would say, could this happen? I'm inclined to say absolutely, but do I believe every story? Absolutely not. So when it comes out that these Heaven is for Real, some of these bits and pieces have been fabricated. Okay. Yeah. That really poisons the well against the whole thing. Some of these stories can be fabricated. Let me just say this. I think that, I mean, so back in 2013, my father basically spent a week unconscious in a coma, on a ventilator. He flatlined multiple times and he claims to have had an experience during those windows of time that it was definitely not from around here, I'll just say that.
Now, I don't build anything theologically, philosophically, or argumentatively on my father's story because there was nothing in my father's story that could be verified empirically. In other words, I have no hard data to show that something like that happened, but there are some cases where the stories get empirically verified and, look, for those reasons, despite the fact you've got these Heaven is for Real stories out there, I think some of these other stories that have some empirical data behind them, man, that's interesting stuff. I think we therefore have to take it somewhat seriously. So for example, there's some stories of people being on the operating room table, and basically dying during the surgery and they recount leaving their body. They recount sitting up on the far upper corner of the room, looking down on top of the cabinets and seeing boxes of rubber gloves and things like that.
Then they resuscitate them and when they come back and they start talking to people, they say, "Hey, by the way, there's this box of gloves up on the cabinet." And they go look, and there's a box of gloves there. There's people that have had this experience where they go up through the hospital, the roof of the hospital and see the roof of the hospital and see a yellow and purple tennis shoe on the roof of the hospital. Sure enough, they go up there and there's a yellow and purple tennis shoe up there. There's stories of people being clinically dead in these moments and having an out of body experience in a house 12 miles away where their loved relatives are sitting there at the lunch table, talking about, "Gee, I hope the surgery's going well right now for Uncle Donnie," or whatever.
You know what? They weren't there. Their body wasn't there, yet they had some experience. They get resuscitated. There's stories of people being clinically dead on the table and being able to recount discussions that the surgeon was having about how they were processing through the procedures. So all of that to say there are some cases that are stories of some people that have an out of body experience and see someone in heaven that died before they were born and told them information that they'd never heard before and come back to Earth and verify it, and this is what happened. So all of that to say, there are some of these stories, in the sea of the thousands and thousands of these stories now that people are claiming to have, the vast majority of them are such that you can never verify them. Like my father's story.
I could never verify that that happened, but there are some of these things that are happening that well, you can actually verify bits and pieces of these things. That's fascinating minimally. It's potentially instructive that some of these things are really happening. Again, if they're happening, I'm going to remain noncommittal to whether or not they're actually happening. But I will just say there are some of these things that I go, "Wow, that gets my attention. That's very interesting." If they're happening, I think the debate between the materialists and the dualists is over. There's more to us than our physical body and now we have the Christian story ringing in our ears, that when we die, our soul goes to be in the presence of God. That's very interesting.
Joe Fontenot: Okay. You've talked about this to some degree a little bit, but I have a bring it home question just for me.
Jamie Dew: Okay.
Joe Fontenot: Okay. How do we navigate this? I mean, if you're a pastor in a church and somebody comes to you and says this, or if you, I don't know, maybe you think you had this, you know what I mean, personally, for a person listening, give me some advice for how to process this.
Jamie Dew: Yeah. That's a great way to end. I think number one, when people talk to you about their experiences, we all have to remember that none of us have the ability to step into anyone else's frame of reference and correct them on what they did or did not experience. If they've had an experience, they've had some kind of an experience. Now, how you interpret that experience is a legitimate matter of debate and discussion. So somebody tells me they had something, I go, "Okay, I should believe that they had something." Now what inferences they draw from it is a different matter. So they may draw an inference from some experience that they've said that they had that, no, that inference can't be right. So that's one thing I'd say. This other thing I would say, I think just generally speaking, I would say to Christians, be very, very careful with these stories and be careful in two different categories and be careful in two different ways on each of those categories.
So here's what I mean. I think just factually and scientifically, philosophically be cautious as to whether or not you embrace these and hit your wagon to them, but also be cautious that you don't just throw the baby out with the bath water and be dogmatic that they can't happen. I mean, again, some of the stories that we have heard from this, there is some empirical data to back them up. If that's the case, then it's problematic for us to deny they really happened. On the flip side of that, because you have the really bad and unfortunate situation with the Heaven is for Real, obviously these stories can be fabricated. Obviously, these stories can just be false, so don't hit your wagon to them on an evidential front. So be careful not to be too dismissive because some of these things seem to have some data to support them, but also be careful that you don't hit your wagon to him either.
Then I would say theologically in this other category, be really, really careful to hit your wagon to them. At the same time, understand that some of these things have some empirical data behind them. Therefore, we really could potentially draw some very important philosophical and theological conclusions from them. But my caution to you is this. Be really careful here, because there are some people that claim to have experiences while they're dead that don't jive very well with our theology, if I can just say it that way. People that by all indications about their confession and their lifestyle are lost as they can possibly be that claim to have had some kind of heavenly experience and so there again, all right, they experienced something. How do you interpret that? That's where the hermaneutic of it comes in, so to speak. So just be really cautious. I'm theologically, philosophically, and scientifically, I've seen enough that I think I have to say in the name of intellectual honesty, these things really might could happen.
At the same time, I'm not hitching any doctrine per se to this. Yes, I do believe that we survive our death and that there's an immaterial soul, but I draw that conclusion on other grounds, not this ground. I do think that this could support that idea, but my conviction that I have a soul and that you have a soul is not in and of itself dependent on these stories is what I'd say. So all that I have to say, my advice to you is just caution. Don't be overly dismissive. Certainly don't hit your wagon to these stories. I think we leave the jury out and we keep gathering data. But man, I'll just say again, I'll underscore, if these things are happening, the debates over. [inaudible 00:22:31].
Joe Fontenot: Well, it's fascinating. This is a very interesting topic and I'm glad you went through this with me and everybody listening. Very fascinating.
Jamie Dew: Thanks for asking. I love the topic.
Joe Fontenot: All right. Talk soon.
Jamie Dew: Hey everybody. This is Jamie and Joe again.
Joe Fontenot: If you liked this podcast, would you leave us a rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts? That helps other people find it.
Jamie Dew: And if you have any questions, we'd love to hear about them. Just go to jamiedew.com/questions and send them in that way. And we'll take a look at the most frequently asked questions and give them a shot.