This is a listener question. It's one that many in seminary have wrestled with: How do you know if you're called to pastoral ministry?
Jamie Dew: Hey, everybody. I'm Jamie Dew.
Joe Fontenot: And this is Joe Fontenot.
Jamie Dew: And welcome back again to our podcast, The Towel & Basin, glad to have you with us.
Joe Fontenot: Yes. So today we have another listener question. So this is actually one that we've sort of talked about already. I'll read the question, but there's kind of another angle that I think we can take on this. And so, let me just read the question to you and then we'll kick it off from there.
Jamie Dew: Okay.
Joe Fontenot: Question goes like this. "What things do you think lead people into pastoral ministry? Of course, it's a call of some type," the questioner writes, "but what form does it take?" The questioner says, "I have always felt that the Lord is calling me to some form at some time, but I'm not sure what that will look like."
Jamie Dew: Questions about calling.
Joe Fontenot: Yes. This is a question about calling. Okay. So now, we've already done a question about calling in some sense back in episode seven, right?
Jamie Dew: Okay.
Joe Fontenot: Maybe you can give us a quick recap of that, Jamie.
Jamie Dew: Yeah. If I remember correctly, because this is the kind of thing I normally talk about whenever this comes up, I think [crosstalk 00:01:08] what we did, essentially lay out four principles in that episode about discerning your call.
Number one, you always start with scripture. And while that sounds really obvious, I'll just say it this way. In short, that still matters that we start there, even though everybody expect us to, because, simply put, if the scriptures lay out patterns of God's people and even clear instructions for God's people as to how we are to function in these roles, then you don't start off by saying, "I know the scripture says this, but I'm going to go do something else." So anything that scripture forbids, we just don't go there. So you always have to start with the clear instructions of scripture, what it sets forth, what parameters are and things of that nature is the number one.
Number two, there's a lot of people that want to know right now what God is wanting them to do, specifically, in their life. And I would just simply say this, "Be obedient." Because God's not going to make clear to you exactly what he's calling you to do if there's not patterns of obedience. And I'm not talking short little seasons of obedience, I'm talking long sustained patterns, seasons of your life of dependence and submission to the Lord. So if you really want to know his will for your life, in terms of the specifics, then, man, you've got to posture yourself long and steady in obedience to Christ.
Thirdly, and then only after you've done those first two things, do you begin to pay attention to the passions of your heart. Your passions of your heart, the Bible tells us that the heart is deceitfully wicked and that it can lead us astray. But what I say to folks is that, "Look, when at the same time, the Bible also talks about God giving us the pleasures and the desires of our hearts." And so, what's the difference there? Is the Bible contradicting itself? No. The difference is ultimately, one, left to ourselves, our passions can lead us astray, but when our heart has been postured in that long season of obedience and dependence on God, then the spirit of God's going to be forming us and shaping us and placing within our hearts passions and desires and burdens and things of that nature. So when you brought yourself into submission to scripture, when you've walked in great obedience for long sustained periods of times, then, thirdly, you begin paying attention to the passions of your heart.
And then fourthly, I would say, you always look for the confirmation of the body of Christ. In short, if God is really calling you to do ministry X, then when you have opportunities to do ministry X, you will see the fruit of that in the body of Christ. And there'll be confirmation, people affirming that in you, fruit being born from what you've done, the body of Christ being made stronger from what you've done. So roughly, those are the four types of things that I say. And I think we talk about them in great detail in episode seven.
Joe Fontenot: Yeah. So if anyone listening hasn't listened to this one, it's a really great one, if you have questions about this or you just curious, to jump in. But, or maybe not but, but and. So this is a real common question that I've heard a lot, is a question that I've wrestled with as well personally. I feel like there's kind of this hidden question or assumption built into this. It's almost kind of like the old days of a career when you go work for a company for 40 years, and then you retire at this age, and you get the gold watch and it's that kind of static career. And I feel sometimes we impose that into a calling of God like there's this sort of static calling of God. So maybe you could talk about is that an accurate view of the calling of God? Is it a kind of static thing where once called always called to be a certain path in this life?
Jamie Dew: Yeah. Yeah. [inaudible 00:04:56]. So yeah, you see this a lot of times, especially the younger the disciple, the younger the minister, there's a lot... I felt this way when I was 18 years old, I knew I was called to ministry. I felt like there was something wrong with me, that I knew I was called to ministry in some way, but I really didn't have the first clue as to what that was supposed to be. Is that a missionary, is that an evangelist, is that a pastor? What is that? I really didn't know. I certainly never envisioned the stuff that I get to do now that God's entrusted to me now.
But I remember feeling like there was something wrong with me because, man, all of my buddies and friends who felt like God was calling them into ministry, they seem to have a very specific picture in mind of what God was calling to do. I mean, it was like they knew with a certainty they're going to be a missionary or they're going to be a pastor. And so, I think a lot of people tend to assume that, number one, God gives you a lot of specifics early. And now, look, let me be clear. I'm not saying God can't do that, he does do that from time to time, but I would say that's rare. That's the exception, that's not the rule. So people tend to think that they're going to get all the specifics early.
And number two, they tend to think that it's never going to change for them from that point forward. I think most people that have been in ministry for 20, 30, 40 years, they would be quick to say, "Yeah, that's not really how it works." And so, people start off with a very static view of how ministry and calling happens. And in truth, as God matures you and as God develops you and cultivates within you through theological preparation, ministry preparation, experience, just general life maturity and such, it is not surprising that for most people that do this kind of stuff long enough, that their ministry genuinely does evolve over time.
I mean, look, I started off just my first ministry position, I was a part-time interim youth pastor. And I mean, I was like low, low man on the totem pole and I was only trusted with one little sliver of stuff. That's obviously changed over time and...
Joe Fontenot: Little bit.
Jamie Dew: Yeah. I mean, the older I've gotten and the farther I get into this, the more through those four things that I talked about, scripture, obedience, passions, and confirmation by the body, through those things it's evolved and God would... It's not even so much in my mind that I think of it as changing per se, it's more in my mind of God entrusting more to you, and that's how it works.
Joe Fontenot: I think that's a really great visual of the part-time interim youth minister, because probably I'm just going to go on a limb here and guess that you didn't feel called to be a seminary president.
Jamie Dew: [crosstalk 00:07:54].
Joe Fontenot: That was not the thing you were debating. Should I be a part-time interim youth minister or should I be a seminary president?
Jamie Dew: Right, right.
Joe Fontenot: But at the same time, there was this time in your life when God did call you to that, and you've talked about that on this podcast plenty of times.
Jamie Dew: Right, yep.
Joe Fontenot: And I think when we really start to look back over life, we see that, very common. And to me, that's a comfort, because I'm like, "Oh, okay. I'm not just flopping in the wind here not understanding God, but I'm following and he's revealing."
Jamie Dew: That's right. I mean, we should be more concerned, and I would say this to any 18 year old, I'd say this to any 30 year old, I'd say this to any 50 year old, it doesn't matter your age in life, it should be such in our lives that our aspiration is obedience, number one, and devotion, and then second of all, maximum impact. I mean, the question I want to be asking myself every day is, "Where can I be, what can I be doing that I can make the maximum impact for the kingdom of God right now?" I may think that I could have a bigger impact if I just had a higher level position, but you know what? That has not been entrusted to me yet, so maybe I need to be developed and cultivated a bit.
And if my hands are always open and I'm holding loosely whatever it is that I have in the moment, I'm holding it loosely with a prayer to God, "God, I just want to be obedient, and I want to be in a place where I can make a maximum impact for your kingdom," then I trust that he's going to be developing me and putting opportunities in front of me, where I can indeed do both of those things. And when you do that, man, it's going to evolve in ways you never even imagine.
Joe Fontenot: Yeah. I think that's so spot on. I had this friend, he worked for Samaritan's Purse, and so he'd done all these kinds of things, and he was older than me and I was a bit younger at the time. And I had thought maybe that God was calling me to be a missionary. And I was just talking to him about this, we worked together and he was a friend, and he said, "Look, if God's calling you to do it, why aren't you doing it?" And he wasn't saying quit. He was saying all those functions, all that activity, do it now. Do you feel compelled to do that now or do you just like exotic places is kind of the dichotomy he was putting before me.
And I was like, "Oh, I never really thought about it like that." And I realized how much I was attracted to the image of this thing in my mind, at least at the time, I was pretty young. And that was very helpful for me to just say like, "Well, if God's calling me to do it, why don't I just do it in any form that I can do today?" That really changed my outlook.
Jamie Dew: It's the issue of idolatry, it's as old as humanity itself and the Bible itself. I mean, the enemy knows exactly how to manipulate me and you and anybody else, and take and twist something that's good and turn it into an idol for us. And the reality of it is is that for all of us, there are opportunities for the kingdom that can very easily become a benefit for us or an idol for us. I mean, so for a lot of people, the idea of being a pastor is appealing to them because, hey, you get to stand in front of lots of people every day, every week, and have their undivided attention, and be the center of everything and be the one that people talk about after the church service. In short, you can get a lot of attention for yourself in any one of these roles, or it could be like in case of somebody, like you were saying, it could be just they like exotic places.
And I think that that's part of the Christian journey is learning how and allowing God to grow us in such a way that he, by his spirit and by his word, are able to detangle from our hearts those impure motives and dispositions and leave it, purge those away, let them melt away, and leave it such that the only thing that's really left is just a desire to build the kingdom. And, man, I would just say to my friends and my brothers and sisters that listen to this podcast, man, the sooner, all of us grow to the place and repent of the idolatries in our lives that we crave and we seek, and really just get to the place where I'm content having nothing, and I'm happy and find joy in building the kingdom, who knows how God is going to use you and what God will entrust to you. And I am by no means there, but I want to be there. And I've been on that trail for a long time and hope to grow more in that.
Joe Fontenot: As you were saying that I was thinking about something, that if you're not struggling through this, it's almost like it's exercise. If it's not hard, you're not really growing. It's like the struggle is good in a lot of ways.
Jamie Dew: Yeah, that's right. Well, idolatry always pops up. This is like weeds in a garden, you may till the ground and weed it well, and make good plans and preparations to keep the wrong stuff out, but your work is never done and you never stop that work. You always have to come back to that and get the weeds out again, because the enemy throws them in there all the time.
Joe Fontenot: Yeah. So this has been great. Jamie, thanks for walking us through that. And if anybody hasn't listened through episode seven, that's a great one to go back and pair up with this one. And so, thanks for taking us through that, Jamie.
Jamie Dew: You bet, man.
Joe Fontenot: All right.
Jamie Dew: Hey, everybody. This is Jamie and Joe again.
Joe Fontenot: If you like this podcast, would you leave us a rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts, that helps other people find it.
Jamie Dew: And if you have any questions, we'd love to hear about them. Just go to JamieDew.com/questions and send them in that way, and we'll take a look at the most frequently asked questions and give them a shot.