Today, Jamie discusses a listener question: what advice is there for believers who have friends or family walking away from the faith? He talks about his own experiences on this matter, too.
Jamie Dew: Hey, everybody, this is Jamie Dew.
Joe Fontenot: And this is Joe Fontenot.
Jamie Dew: And once again, we're doing the Towel and the Basin podcast.
Joe Fontenot: Yes. So we're still taking listener questions, which is a lot of fun. You can write into us at jamiedew.com/questions. And so this question, somebody asked, they said, "What advice would you give to a Christian who's dealing with close friends or family members who are walking away from the faith?
Jamie Dew: Yeah. And there's actually been a bunch of ... some articles on this recently. What's the name of that group?
Joe Fontenot: It's ... what's the name of that group, Micah? Do you know? You don't know.
Jamie Dew: Rethink? [crosstalk 00:00:46].
Joe Fontenot: We're going to put this in in post, so everybody be quiet. That was the name of the group.
Jamie Dew: Oh, okay.
Joe Fontenot: This is not going to happen in post. Somebody's going to have to just Google this when they pull over in their car.
Jamie Dew: Well, the point is that there've been a bunch of [crosstalk 00:00:59] ...
Joe Fontenot: There's definitely been a bunch.
Jamie Dew: ... [crosstalk 00:01:00] stories lately and yeah, so it is heartbreaking. It is absolutely heartbreaking and something that at some point or other, it probably all of us will have to deal with that. My story here is a little unique in that my entire intellectual journey was born out of doubt and struggling. I didn't set out to be an academic, certainly didn't expect to be a philosopher. But in 24 years of walking with Christ, I've gone through ... I mean, I'm always the kind of person that's just somewhat inquisitive, and, "Well, I wonder about this and how do we reconcile ... " I'll ask questions like that. Still do. But I've gone through probably two rather substantial seasons of struggle and doubt where I just wondered, "Man, gosh, how do we know this is right?"
And so having gone through that myself and wrestle with that, I get asked this question a lot. I've also been a pastor to folks that maybe in the church where grandma always believed and mom always believed, but now this third generation, the daughter doesn't believe and will walk away or something like that. As a professor, I've had students do this. I'll just say this, there is a lot of pressure that ends up getting exerted in this moment on ourselves as the ones who want to be a faithful witness and a faithful representative of Christ in this moment. And there's also a lot of pressure that gets placed on the person that struggling with these questions. And I would just say generally speaking, I think that pressure is probably misplaced and therefore unhelpful.
Having said that, that doesn't mean that we don't have a response, and it doesn't mean that we don't try to work through this and that we don't have a duty to try to work through this. We absolutely do. I don't know. These are in no particular order of what I'd say to folks that might be dealing with that. Understand this, that just like belief is produced or motivated for a wide variety of reasons in believers, so too is disbelief. So for example, what causes me to actually believe may very well be different things than you. And I think we've talked about this on some other podcast, that ...
Joe Fontenot: Yeah we did.
Jamie Dew: ... people would say things to me like, "Man, I didn't believe in God. And then I watched my child be born and it just triggered something." And I say to that, "Praise God." That didn't work for me like that. Watching my children born was an awesome moment, but it didn't necessarily change around for better or worse my belief in God. I went into it believing and I came out.
People believe for different reasons. People are motivated towards God for different reasons. The same is true of disbelief. What causes one person to sort of have their faith unhitched, so to speak, may not have the same effect on somebody else. I mean, so for example, somebody could go through a serious loss or death of someone and it actually draw them closer to God, and somebody else could go through a very similar circumstance and it cause them to walk away from God. People respond very differently to things and scenarios. So why is that important? Because what we don't want to do is suspect and therefore approach someone with disbelief with this sort of one size fits all type of mentality that, "Oh, I know what to do. You're struggling with belief in God? You don't know if you believe this stuff anymore? So let me dump out the arguments for God's existence."
There are going to be some people that those arguments are absolutely effective with. And then there are going to be some people that they're not. There may be some people that, as I mentioned, the problem of evil, they lost someone, is very persuasive to them, and therefore responses to the problem of evil could be very helpful. But then there'll be some people that man, those responses to the problem of evil don't really work at all. The reason that's important is because I think we often assume that there's "one thing" you're supposed to say and that'll do it, and if you just know that magic phrase or that one little response, then you're good. And man, unfortunately, that type of thing just doesn't work. I get asked that all the time. "What's the one thing you could say to a ... " And I go, "Unfortunately, that silver bullet just doesn't even exist."
So you have to know that going in. I think you also have to know going in that while we should have a heartbreak over a friend or a loved one losing their faith there's also nevertheless a duty that you bear and a duty that you don't bear. It's not your job to win. It's not your job to make them believe again. Those are things that only the Lord can do in their life, right? So the Spirit of God has to work there. That doesn't mean that I don't respond or that I don't try to hear them out. But you don't want to exert pressure on those folks. Now, if there are moral behaviors that are going along with it that are hurtful to people, then parents especially, you have a duty to respond and protect your family. But oftentimes what people do is they put a lot of pressure on people and that pressure, generally speaking, just makes it worse. I think it's helpful to dialogue with people, find out so exactly what's going on here.
Joe Fontenot: Yeah. And I definitely can understand the pressure ... the temptation to do that, because it's almost like you want to guilt them into getting back into right behavior. Because guilt is such a powerful, quick tool to get people to change their behavior. But it's obviously not an issue of the heart at that point for them, they're just doing it for [crosstalk 00:06:34].
Jamie Dew: That's right. So making them feel bad for not believing is probably not going to generate belief back in. It may present a bunch of resentment and even hostility back. I mean, and they may respond to guilt for a season and be like, "Okay, yeah, I believe," and come back along. Chances are in those scenarios though, that person is really just faking it. They're coming along, but at night when they put their head on the pillow, they still are struggling. So I don't know that we're actually ministering to people well when all we're forcing them to do because of guilt and pressure is to come back along, fake it, but still struggle with these beliefs. Generally speaking, I mean, look, talk to them. Find out from them. I mean, they may say things like, "I don't believe because I lost a loved one," so it's clearly something to do with the problem of evil.
But man, in my experience, if I talk to 20 people that are struggling with the problem of evil, there's still a lot more I need to know about them. Listen to them, dialogue with them, hear them out on exactly what's generated these questions, what motivates us things. In most of these cases, what folks actually need is a pastoral touch of love and grace and support in those moments. And so you want to do those types of things. You want to yourself model an ability to have dialogues about those things. So apologetics can help in these moments. If you don't know answers to questions, don't fake it. That's not helpful either. You want to pray for this person regularly and you want to do everything you can to be a model and an example of what Christianity really is all about in that moment. Chances are there's some kind of frustration they've experienced in the body of Christ with something they don't think adds up or is right and we need to do our diligence there to show what Christianity really is by the way we live.
Joe Fontenot: So you touched on something a minute ago, and I found this interesting because I definitely feel this is the way I think about things. "I didn't do enough." So if my kids grow up and one or both of them decide to go down this path and they leave the faith or they never become a Christian, my first thought is, "I failed." I think a lot of people are taking that on, and so much of their actions or the response to this is, "I don't want to fail. I'm going to never quit. I'm going to do anything I can," you know what I mean? Is that good behavior?
Jamie Dew: Well look, let me just say, I do think that there is the possibility that we do fail in the way we've treated people. I mean, look, as a parent, if I have modeled the opposite of Christ in the way I treat my children, if I have done anything hurtful to them and yet foist upon them this faith and practice, chances are they're going to resent. So I mean, it is possible that we have done ... we have mishandled our witness. That's probably the best way of saying it. We've mishandled our witness to those around us. And so we could have some repenting to do, absolutely. At the same time, we have to remember that you could, by contrast, do everything right and they still not believe.
So for example, Jesus ... as I like to say to people, I'm pretty sure that Jesus does it right. Kind of joking here. Of course he does it right. Jesus is the model. He is the example. Jesus, when he interacts with people, when he talks of faith, when he calls people to repentance into faith, he is doing it right. Start there. Now watch, throughout his ministry, does everybody believe? No. There are plenty of people that he preaches to and they walk away. I'm thinking of John six here. This is right after he's fed thousands of people and he's got this enormous following of "followers," and then Jesus looks at them and says unless they eat his flesh and drink his blood, they have no part with him. And this was a hard saying, John tells us. And from that point forward, many turned back and followed him no more. Again, I'm pretty sure Jesus does it right. And yet having done everything right in terms of witness, there's still a lot of people that don't believe.
So you could, mom or dad, brother or sister, cousin or friend, you could very well do it exactly right and they still walk away. Your job therefore is not to win, your job is to be faithful and to love them and to be a faithful witness and a faithful presence to them in their life. And so far as ... and pray for them. And that's the bulk of our work. I don't know if that's everything, but that is the bulk of our work in these moments, I think.
Joe Fontenot: Yeah. I think that's very helpful. I think it's very helpful because that is something that we can do, but also feel fulfilled doing, you know what I mean? Because it kind of takes the onus off of us because it's really on them and it's not our decision.
Jamie Dew: Yeah, that's right. I mean, it's the Lord's work to do. Oh, by the way, the opposite of that is also true. You could do everything wrong and God could still be at work in their life in such a way that they absolutely believe. And so ...
Joe Fontenot: It's also kind of comforting as well.
Jamie Dew: Also kind of comforting as well. And all that to say we do have a duty, but we do our duty as faithful witnesses to Christ, recognizing all the while that this is a spiritual battle, not purely an intellectual battle. And that's really, by the way, my point, when I talk about how you could do all ... you can know all the apologetics in the world, and there's a bit of an assumption sometimes from an apologist ... which I am one, so I'm critiquing my own tribe here. There's a bit of an assumption sometimes that man, if you just learn all the arguments and get all the evidence and sharpen your ability to articulate it, you're going to win them all. Sorry, this is a spiritual battle. We need to be ready to do our battle. We need to be ready to do our part, but we recognize every step of the way that this is the Lord's winning or losing of that person. And we pray to that end.
Hey, everybody. This is Jamie and Joe again.
Joe Fontenot: If you liked this podcast, would you leave us a rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts? That helps other people find it.
Jamie Dew: And if you have any questions, we'd love to hear about them. Just go to jamiedew.com/questions and send them in that way, and we'll take a look at the most frequently asked questions and give them a shot.